The Unforgivable Curses - Ep. 6

In this episode of Cursed...ish, Angela Mattes and Daniel Stevens head into one of the darkest corners of the Harry Potter universe: the Unforgivable Curses. From Avada Kedavra to the Cruciatus Curse and the Imperius Curse, they unpack how the wizarding world casually hands children the power to torture, control minds, and kill instantly, then somehow treats that as normal school-adjacent information. Along the way, they dig into the horrifying implications of Hogwarts, Defense Against the Dark Arts, Mad-Eye Moody/Barty Crouch Jr.’s infamous classroom demonstration, and the moral chaos at the heart of this magical world. And then they ask the question that makes everything worse: if these curses are truly unforgivable, why does Harry Potter himself end up using them? Darkly funny, skeptical, and gloriously uncomfortable, this episode explores dark magic in Harry Potter, wizarding-world ethics, and why this beloved fantasy series gets much more disturbing the older you get.

Questions, comments, or your own accursed tales to share? Send us a hex at uhoh@cursedish.com.

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Transcript

Daniel 0:00

If you lived in the magical world and they're like, what job are you gonna go into? Nothing but liability lawyer or injury lawyer should be your answer.

Angela 0:09

Not to mention, you these are kids. Their frontal lobes are not developed. I would have never survived Hogwarts.

Daniel 0:15

There's like 12 in first year world. 11! 11. Yeah, sorry, you said 11. Well, I mean, yeah, you're giving a gun to an 11-year-old.

Angela 0:35

Welcome, accursed ones, to Cursed Ish, a podcast about misfortune, mystery, and the stories we tell when bad luck stops feeling random. I'm Angela Mattis.

Daniel 0:44

And I'm Daniel Stevens.

Angela 0:45

So before we dive into today's cursed topic, Daniel, has anything cursed happened to you this week?

Daniel 0:52

You know, nothing particularly cursed happened to me. I did get stuck behind a very long train today. And a red there was a red light, they stopped the the traffic, and there was a no-turn on red, so I couldn't even turn right to like escape and go parallel with the train. But I mean that that isn't truly that cursed of a moment. So I'll I'll say I've made it through the week unscathed.

Angela 1:11

Okay, and I have a resolution for you. Move to a major city, sell your car, no longer rely on anything but public transportation and your own two legs.

Daniel 1:21

I do live in a major metro area, and there's like the fact that I got some more training. It's not rural, you know, like rural up north Wisconsin or anything like that. I don't have a car.

Angela 1:31

I don't deal with trains making me pause at stoplights.

Daniel 1:34

I mean, if I don't have a car, I deal with the other type of trains, which are subway trains. You know, that used to delay me all the time as well. The number of times I've walked into the metro and there's been single tracking or just yeah. Um, how about you? Any any cursed events this week?

Angela 1:58

Um, no, but I I know I've been talking about how I just moved recently and I realized that I am in that uh terrifying little period of time between when you move somewhere new and when you figure out for sure if it's haunted or not. So um, like I forgot about this, but there's always those first couple days where you're like, if this place is haunted, I'm about to find out the hard way. Which I have lived in apartments that have been a little sketch-o on that regard. But so far, so good. I think it's just me here.

Daniel 2:31

Yeah, the the the vibes are good there and the vibes are good.

Angela 2:34

But I think this is a newer building, so that's what makes it, I think, a little bit more chill.

Daniel 2:41

I look yeah, I whenever there's new buildings, I always imagine that I always think it's funny the idea of like a ghost, but they're from like 1998.

Angela 2:49

So yeah, so far, no ghosts, all good. I am yeah. But um, all right, well, let's dive in to our curse today. It is Yeah, what do you got for me? It is ghost adjacent in a very uh meandering type of way. But before I dive right in, I need to set the scene.

unknown 3:10

Okay.

Angela 3:11

You're 11 years old. An owl has just swooped in and dropped a letter on your doorstep inviting you to become a student at the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. The first thing you do is go to Diagon Alley to buy your school supplies. They don't sell wands and wizarding robes at Target, do they?

SPEAKER_03 3:30

I forgot I pulled a stupid ass joker.

Daniel 3:34

I I appreciate it. That's why we're here, Angela. Please, more of those. And I mean, they probably here's the thing though, they probably literally do sell Harry Potter robes at Target. I know.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Depends on the time of year. Um anyway, you make your way through the leaky cauldron and out into the back alley, and the anticipation is both.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

What was I doing when I wrote this?

Daniel 4:03

What were you? Were you eating rotisserie chicken when you wrote this, Angela?

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Why? What would that make me do?

Daniel 4:09

Sorry, that's a Simpsons joke.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Oh, okay.

Daniel 4:13

Um I won't explain it. You need to do a clean take, though.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Okay. You make your way through the leaky cauldron and out into the back alley, and the anticipation is bubbling in your stomach like an overboiling potion.

Daniel 4:30

No.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

That's as clean a take as I can get. Okay.

Daniel 4:37

I mean, that's valid though. I would be there would be butterflies in my stomach if I were shopping for my first magical idea.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Oh yeah, I mean, I would be jumping out of my skin, especially imagine you're a muggle born.

Daniel 4:48

That's that's one thing I never thought, like, for okay, Hermione. She's just sitting there. For like she didn't know witches and wizards existed, then all of a sudden she's just Well, she was well, I think it helps that they were doing like weird bits of magic.

Angela 5:00

So, like, something was off. Something was funny, and it was more an answer to a question, I think.

Daniel 5:05

So Ah, so she okay, so it's sort of like Harry, where like he would be able to do things without understanding.

Angela 5:10

Yeah, like he regrew his hair back when Aunt Petunia shaved his head, stuff like that.

Daniel 5:14

I mean, if someone walked up to me and was like, you're a secret wizard, I'd be like, you're a cult leader, get away from me. I mean, that's like the obvious terrible.

Angela 5:21

Well, keep that thought in mind. Um I guess uh I will begin by adding the extra layer in that yes, you are a muggle born, so you are in awe as the brick wall opens up into a whole new world. Owls soar in the sky above, and witches and wizards bustle on by going about their business of buying frog livers and beetle eyes at five nuts a scoop. After a dizzying.

Daniel 5:44

Is that the is that the inflation adjusted rate?

Angela 5:47

No, that's I looked that up. That's what it what was written in the book. Five nuts a scoop for beetle eyes.

Daniel 5:53

Ah, so yeah, that was nineteen that was nineteen nineties prices.

Angela 5:56

Oh yeah.

Daniel 5:57

If only we could get if only we could get a scoop of beetle eyes for five nuts nowadays.

Angela 6:03

Yeah, fucking hell. After a dizzying pit stop at Gringotts, you've got a few galleons burning a hole in your pocket. A scoop of ice cream from Fortescues is in your near future. But first, you must proudly make your way to the most important shop of all, Olivanders, to get your wand. You wave one after another, blast boxes off the shelves, and windows are exploding and bits of glass go flying. Nine inches, unicorn string, holly, oak, dragon, heart string, very springy, but still no. Vinewood, Vila hair, eight inches, and sparks fly. You found a match. Congratulations, young witch what the fuck was I doing when I wrote this? Congratulations, young witch or wizard. You are now in possession of a magic wand, which you'll learn to yield over the next seven years until one day you've successfully acquired the ability to torture, do mind control, and kill people instantly.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

They're called the unforgivable curses, baby, and you're gonna learn all about them in fourth year.

Daniel 7:05

That's right. It is wild to think about that. You're basically yeah, you're like a gun.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Like Olivanders, does he have like a side business doing concealed carry license? Because he's basically setting these kids up with a loaded weapon. They are coming in hot.

Daniel 7:21

And like the choosing, the selection process is literally explosive. So it starts off with a like with danger and things blowing up.

Angela 7:28

Like uh, yeah, literally everything about this world is like like when Draco Malfoy is like, my father will hear about this, like, don't talk shit about that kid. He is calling out some serious issues. Lucius needs to hear about half this shit they're doing.

Daniel 7:44

I mean, a side spin-off story of like Harry Potter uh going on at the same time of all the legal battles that must have been happening from all the liability issues and everything at that school. Amazing. I would watch that in a second.

Angela 7:57

I mean, like the least of your issues are that there's a ghost with its head half sawed off partially, but then it's stuck by it. Like, that is the least of your problems. Not to mention another ghost that glides around covered in silver blood. Like, again, least of your problems. Then I I mean Yeah, I mean it just go on and on and on.

Daniel 8:17

That place is a fantastical location.

Angela 8:19

I mean, you've got a three-headed Cerberus dog on the third floor, you've got uh evil wizards sucking unicorn blood out in the forbidden forest where you're doing your detentions in the dead of night.

Daniel 8:32

You lived in the magical world and they're like, what job are you gonna go into?

Angela 8:36

Nothing but liability lawyer or injury lawyer, we should be your answer because it's not to mention you these are kids, their frontal lobes are not developed. I would have I would have never survived Hogwarts.

Daniel 8:48

There's 12 there's like 12 inches. Yeah, sorry, you said 11. Well, I mean, yeah, you're giving a gun to an 11-year-old. Insanity.

Angela 8:58

Oh, yeah. 100%.

Daniel 9:00

Okay. Let's get into just how day dangerous and damaging these curses are.

Angela 9:04

Oh, yeah. So I guess we can start by digging into why they are called unforgivable, which apparently, and I don't remember reading this in the books, but you know how everybody likes all the Harry Potter lore has just gone on and on and on.

Daniel 9:17

It's taken on a world of its own, yeah.

Angela 9:19

So it was apparently classified by the Ministry of Magic in 1717. These spells are considered the darkest in existence, serving only to cause severe harm, pain, or death. And how they work, they require a powerful, malevolent intent. The caster must truly desire to cause pain, dominate, or kill. Which I feel was like the literary trapdoor to be like, oh no, these are like the bad guys, only use them because you have to have the intent. And it's like, have you been a bitchy 13-year-old who just got her period? Like, I mean, I haven't, but have you ever had a boy tell you that you have a mustache when you're going through puberty? Half of fifth year would be dead.

Daniel 9:56

Yeah. I mean, I've never thought about I mean, I've read all the books, but I've never really thought about that little key. And I always wanna I it always did bother me when it's like, okay, they're all shooting deadly bullets at you, and you're responding with like stupefy. It's like, no, just kill them. They are like match force with force. That always bugged me in in there. So that actually, I didn't know there was that little explanation that, like, truly in your heart, you have to have the desire to kill. And I do love that.

Angela 10:24

Well, I think it comes up in a later book.

Daniel 10:27

Maybe my media literacy is just shit, and I don't remember reading that that's even though it's clearly spelled out in a children's book.

Angela 10:34

Well, are they really children's books?

Daniel 10:35

True.

Angela 10:35

Okay, so we're getting a little bit of ahead of ourselves. Let's dial it back and discuss the actual curses. So there are three unforgivable curses. There is the crucio, the cruciatus curse, which is essentially um inflicting like torturous pain on someone, which this is the one where I think it comes most into context in the books about the whole idea of like you have to really mean it, because I feel like the m the more you can hurt someone, the like the more you have to be like evil or whatever. But even in the book, in the fourth year, when they go into the uh Defense Against the Dark Arts class, and it's lo and behold, a disguised Death Eater teaching them, and it's Barty Crouch Jr. disguised as um Professor Moody. He has first of all, he teaches them these curses in fourth year. So they're 15, 14 years old, which is nuts.

Daniel 11:31

Would they always have done that, or was that only because Barty Crouch is actually was out of control?

Angela 11:37

I think it was like a driver in the story, and I don't know if it would have been regular.

Daniel 11:42

I mean, at some point they would have told them about the unforgivable curses. So it had to be part of the curriculum, yeah.

Angela 11:47

Yeah. But um, I don't know if it would be at the tender age of like 13 or 14 or whatever. But so he does this by inflicting the curses on a spider in front of the kids. So he literally he does a demonstration. It even says, because I looked this up a little bit, where it was like, how did he describe the curses in the book? And he said, if you cast a cruciatus curse, the most you would do is give someone a nosebleed. And it's like that's how he passes it off, like, oh, like you can't really hurt somebody, you can give them a nosebleed. I'm sorry, but you're not giving me a fucking nosebleed. Like that is still pretty bad.

Daniel 12:21

Like, I don't want and also, does that mean like they've scrambled your brains a little bit or something too? Like, nothing.

Angela 12:26

I don't know. But like there is some sort of pain that has been inflicted, and now there's blood coming out of my nose. I don't think that that is a good enough softening of this whole concept of like, you're a kid, you can't do these curses. So therefore, like we can drive the story along. So there's the Cruciatus curse, which Neville Longbottom, his parents were put under the curse for an extended period of time until they both went insane and now we're in the Janus Thicky Ward in St. Mungo's. So again, children's book kids. This is this is what's going on.

Daniel 13:00

I mean, there's a little bit of like I the Cruciardis being like the first kind of implies it's the most tame, but to me it's honestly the worst of the three.

Angela 13:10

Uh yeah, I think I would agree with that.

Daniel 13:12

It can be used essentially. I mean, Neville's parents are essentially dead. Like, yes, he can go visit them.

Angela 13:18

Like it has literally hurt them to the point of them like losing their minds, going insane. That is that is bonkers.

Daniel 13:26

And like, I mean, I'm not saying I can understand how someone could kill someone, but I could like torturing someone seems, I mean, yes, it's not their death, but it is like so much more evil almost in a way. Like the outcome is different, but the method is so much worse.

Angela 13:42

Oh, yeah, like I'm sure some real nasty person could get a lot more mileage out of the Cruciatus curse than out of an Avada cadavra, that's for sure. Which, speaking of the Avada cadavra, that is the killing curse, which is like instant death. Honestly, again, kind of apples to apples, sure. Give me that Avada in a hot second, babe. Um, and then there's the Imperious Curse.

Daniel 14:06

Which the Imperious Curse is truly the trickiest of the three.

Angela 14:09

Right. That's the one that I feel like I don't understand the most. Like the Imperious Curse is essentially mind control. Like you cast the Imperio or the Imperious Curse onto someone, and then you can like control them. But it's like, does it create a little tether between you and them? Because it's like a long-term thing. So, in in the books, a lot of the Death Eaters, like Lucius Malfoy, are not incarcerated because they said that they were under the Imperious Curse and that their actions were not their own and that this was something that would have been happening long term. And then later in the books, Pious Thickness um is like a ministry official who then becomes the minister of magic because he's under the Imperious Curse and he's acting on behalf of Voldemort when Voldemort takes over the ministry. So, like, I mean, if you consider like the cast, like the person who's been the caster of the Imperious, what are you doing all day? Like, do you check in on them? Are you like sending little messages down the line? Like, how do you can you only is this like a one-to-one curse?

Daniel 15:10

Um And like is there interpretation? Like, do you do the curse and you say perform this task? But then like if you know, if if the person under the curse gets to a decision point and they have to decide how to continue the best way to perform the task, like do they have some type of reasoning skill or is it all controlled?

Angela 15:30

I don't know, but JK Rowling did not let her little rat brain run around with this one for long enough because if you think about the Imperious Curse and how it like could be used, I mean think about all the things going on in the world today. Think about like the obscene files. I honestly think that so the Imperious Curse in itself, I think is pretty insidious. Just the whole idea of like being controlled by someone like their puppet, and that could be completely destructively used by anybody. Like if you think about it, if you've got a wand, you can do this. Like you can have this power over somebody if you try hard enough. Which, I mean, whatever.

Daniel 16:07

Uh and they're giving this power to 11-year-olds.

Angela 16:10

Yeah. Like, welcome to Hogwarts. Would you like to become a psychopath? That is a that is an option for you.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

Wild.

Angela 16:17

Um wild. So yeah, honestly, I feel like the nicest, sweetest little, nice little kiss on the forehead would be the Avada Kadavra.

Daniel 16:28

Yeah, truly, if someone was like walked up to me and was like, I'm gonna perform one of the three unforgivable curses, I'm like, oh god, maybe just get it over with and just do Avada Kadavra.

Angela 16:37

Yeah.

Daniel 16:38

And it's interesting because like the cruciate's curse and Avada Kadavra, humans can do those. We do not need magic to do those two things. But they're still two of the most powerful tools in magic. It's kind of crazy to think about.

Angela 16:51

Oh my god, I didn't even think about it like that.

Daniel 16:53

Yeah, like I mean, I'm not going to, but I could go torture someone, I don't need a wand to do it. I could go kill someone, I don't need a wand to, I cannot go control someone. So that's truly the only magic one. And even that, people, there are people who get almost imperious. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, there are definitely horrifying.

Angela 17:14

Yeah, but like I honestly feel like, ugh, yeah, it gives me the heebie jeebies to think about. I've never thought about the Imperious Curse like this because it's really honestly not that prevalent in the books.

Daniel 17:25

Um, but like I feel like they almost gloss over it as like like usually when they need someone to like do something, they use the polyjuice potion to impersonate them rather than control. So it's almost like they get the same storylines through polyjuice.

Angela 17:38

Which that in itself is fucked up as hell. Oh, like when you think about the polyjuice. I don't know, like when you think about the polyjuice through the mind of a disgusting adult, I guess. Um, like these are just it's just so gross.

Daniel 17:55

Yeah. Maybe that's why these need to be books for children, because only children can look at these mechanisms and not think of all the horrifying things that people would really be doing with them.

Angela 18:03

I guess. Maybe this is why being an adult sucks. Like all of those memes out there where it's like adulting is so hard, it's like, yeah, because my stupid brain thinks about everything through the most disgusting filters possible. Everything is ruined. I just wanted the Cruciatus curse to be a fun little torture mechanism in my child book. And now I've turned it into something much darker.

Daniel 18:24

Yeah, why why can't I just ignore the horrifying implications of all these things?

Angela 18:28

Yeah. Anyway, speaking of ignoring the horrifying implications, I was thinking about Harry Potter and like the Golden Trio, and I was like, did they ever use the unforgivable curses? Because they're really set up in the fourth book to be these like you you will go to jail, you will you will go straight to jail, straight to Azcaban. And also, I don't think that it ever really discusses exactly how you would get caught doing this, like at what point you go to Azcaban. I guess they can like check your wand and all that crap, but still, that becomes a plot hole in its own self because guess who performs just about every single one of these curses throughout the narrative of Harry Potter?

Daniel 19:08

Does Harry do them all?

Angela 19:10

The fucking boy who lived himself. So of course, yeah, and he takes it one step further. So he performs the Cruciatus curse on Bellatrix Lestrange and the Ministry of Magic after she kills Sirius Black, and she like laughs at him and says like he doesn't have enough he doesn't mean it enough.

Daniel 19:30

Yeah, you know what? I do remember that now. Now that you yeah, that so they do kind of openly talk about how meaning it is super important, and it's like right.

Angela 19:39

But then in the seventh book, he uses it on Amicus Carrow and the Raven Claw Tower for spitting on Professor McGonagall. So he like learned from his mistakes. So now Harry is just using the cruciata's curse.

Daniel 19:53

Did he learn or did he grow up and become hardened and angry at the world in those two in those couple years? He actually learned to feel the anger.

Angela 20:01

Yeah, but I feel like there's this like um inconsistent narrative that the golden trio is like above rises above all of like they have moral high ground and Voldemort is so bad, but it's like, I don't know, because here he performs the Cruciatus curse twice. He uses the Imperious curse on Travers and Diagonale when they're trying to get access to Gringods, and also he uses it again on Bagrod, the goblin, when they are trying to break into the Lestrange Vault. And then technically he never uses the killing curse, but he sort of sandbags the killing curse because he keeps using the Expelly Armus spell and it boomerangs the killing curse right back to um Voldemort. So technically, Harry is a serial killer? He's a real fucked up dude.

Daniel 20:52

I don't know if I'd call him a serial killer, but he definitely used those curses and at least reflected a killing curse back at the person who sent it.

Angela 21:03

Yeah, but there's one more curse that I think had it not been an under the radar made-up curse, could have been an unforgivable. And once again, Harry with a sectum semper curse, literally effectively ripping open Draco Malfoy's chest and letting him bleed out on the floor of Moaning Myrtle's bathroom in sixth year.

Daniel 21:24

Oh remind me, that's that's the one he read in the Half Blood Prince's book.

Angela 21:29

Yeah, right. So like Snape made it up, he read it, he tried it on Draco.

Daniel 21:33

What did it say about it? I think it just said something like use this on your enemies or something like that.

Angela 21:38

Yeah.

Daniel 21:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically No, I mean, that's another thing. Imagine just doing a spell you didn't know what it did. That's right.

Angela 21:47

The most irresponsible. Yeah, but that is childhood. I mean, that is childhood. That is like not having your this is why, I guess, coming full circle, this is why maybe these kids shouldn't be given wands until they can prove yeah. Because first of all, he uses this curse. He doesn't know what it is. It ends up literally tearing a child's chest apart. And luckily he does live. But like there are no ramifications for Harry. He does not go to Azkaban. He does not get charged with anything. Like Draco Melfoy is still the enemy. He's still the bad, you know, the bad actor when like I don't recall reading about Draco Melfoy doing any unforgivables. And I don't recall Draco Malfoy ripping anybody's chest open and then just kind of getting a little sni like a little, you know, slap on the hand about it.

Daniel 22:33

He did petrify Harry and then stomp on his face. That's a bit like a Christian.

Angela 22:39

You did give a girl a cursed necklace. You know what? I'm not here to have this conversation today. I'm not prepared to make my argument.

Daniel 22:47

I know I know not to go down the Draco Malvoy trail of you. We we will agree to disagree. I am just a snibbling little weasel, and I will always think that.

Angela 22:57

I will agree to disagree.

Daniel 23:00

Okay.

Angela 23:00

I don't even know why I'm trying to make this argument because it's really not something I sit and like live and die on. But when you think about it, because I think what I like my my little brain spiraled down the path of like, okay, so for those who don't know, there is an entire world of Harry Potter fanfiction out on the internet on this website called AO3. And a lot of these fanfictions are written when the Golden Trio is like an adult, and it's imagining their lives when like after the war and when they're adults.

Daniel 23:30

And so like expanded universe type stuff, right?

Angela 23:33

Yes. And as I have said on this podcast once or twice, I do write some of this fan fiction. Um, and so I have put a lot more thought and time into considering these characters and how they might be thinking and feeling and behaving as adults. And one of the things that I feel like is really interesting when you consider how like the things that they did in school, like I think what we're going through right now is we're talking through these curses from our adult minds and our adult points of view, being like, that a lot of this stuff wasn't okay. Like a lot of these things that these kids did, and the I mean, just brutality that they had at their fingertips, things that were happening to them, the possibilities of the way, like, I mean, you have a wand, you can do any of these curses if you mean it enough. Like, yeah, get me, get anybody in a bad mood, and they can mean a lot of things. And we do see that with the you know muggle equivalents, like there this does happen that you know, a gun in the house, a kid, you know, pops off and uses it and and commits them a serious crime or a murder. But anyway, I digress.

Daniel 24:42

And even well, and even just like not un not even being able to fully appreciate the power of that weapon. And yes, they're teaching these kids the curses and they're telling them how bad they are, but that's a 13-year-old. That no one, I don't think any 13-year-old can truly understand the gravity of I mean, 13 is old, but like life and death stuff. There's a reason we don't give kids access to life and death things because they don't have like the full concept of truly the finality of death.

Angela 25:08

They don't have the frontal lobe, they don't have yeah. But it's interesting because Harry, of course, really has a lot of morally gray behavior in the Harry Potter series. But you know who else has a lot of morally gray behavior? And I was really surprised to find that they did not in the books commit any unforgivable curses, but I honestly almost kind of like don't believe that. I feel like I'm missing something. Hermione Granger, man, that girl was vicious.

Daniel 25:36

I mean, she is the most skilled, therefore she knows what needs to get done and she gets stuff done. Right. I feel like that's kind of like the examples for her are like she knew what needed to be done and she was the one who could do it, right?

Angela 25:47

Yeah, but she trapped Rita Skeeter in her beetle form in a jar for like an undisclosed period of time that was not sounding like a day or two. She set a teacher on fire. She cursed zits onto Marietta Edgecombe's forehead that like couldn't be removed.

Daniel 26:03

That's brutal.

Angela 26:04

I I just think it's interesting, like the way you look back at these things as an adult and the way that it skews differently in your brain up, being like, no, like she was she was a problem. Like, and Harry was a problem. Like Ron, honestly, the only reason why he wasn't a problem is because he's a fucking idiot.

Daniel 26:22

Like he's Yeah, was he could he even call it He's too busy trying to figure out how to chew with his mouth closed.

Angela 26:29

Um, he didn't have time to be casting cruciatis curses, but I mean he kind of has he has a temper a little bit in the books, right?

Daniel 26:38

Yeah, yeah, you're right. Well, he's the one who he storms away and leaves them after out of in jealousy and like in kind of anger.

Angela 26:45

Yeah, he's more just like a basic angsty lame dude.

Daniel 26:49

Yeah, yeah.

Angela 26:50

I don't like Ron.

Daniel 26:51

Um It is wild. It's just like it is I don't know, I guess I d uh until you like kind of pointed out how crazy this is that they give these kids this power. I it just you go along with it when you're reading the books or seeing the movies. Like, of course a kid can cast a spell, why not? They're wizards. But then you're like, I mean, yeah, like you said, as an adult to think about it in the terms of being an adult, you're like, oh god, what that actually means. And like the thought of every kid, it's basically every kid at Hogwarts has a gun in their in their pocket. Which is like imagine a s a world where that was the situation in schools.

Angela 27:32

Well, I went to a pretty rough high school and there were kids with guns in their pockets there too. But um it wasn't even playing, like it wasn't all of us, obviously. It wasn't even playing field. Like, I think Hogwarts would have been raised to the ground within 200 years if it truly existed. So there you go, everyone. Magic isn't real, wizards do not exist, and we're all adults here, so um, Harry Potter has now been ruined for you.

Daniel 27:57

Well, and I mean I guess even just like the whole concept of Voldemort, he's just like some guy who has way too much power. We give it like he has weapons that are too much for one person to wield. And it is kind of I don't know if I I never really thought of Harry Potter through a gun control lens, but it really does seem like that's kind of what J.K. Rowling was maybe getting at.

Angela 28:20

I am not gonna give her the credit of having any kind of like deeper thought into that. I mean, I'm not gonna take away from it that there are a lot of really solid moral discussions, and there's like those books. I'm not saying they're bad or whatever, but I do feel like I can look back at Harry Potter now with like the sour taste in my mouth of knowing what she has become and look at it, and I'm more than happy to tear her shit apart and be like, that was fucked up, that was a mess, that was a nightmare, that was a plot hole, that didn't make sense. Your characters were not, you know, I'm okay with kind of tearing it apart. And that's one of the things that I think is really exciting about the fanfiction world is like there are so many stories out there where people really do break down all of these, like, I don't know if I've had a single original thought in this entire podcast because I am taking things that I've thought about and gleaned from like little bits and pieces of all these different fan fictions, and it it really is. She created this world that is so dense and interesting, and there's so much to say about it. But I do think that one of the most interesting arguments is like these kids would be so fucked up. This world would be so fucked up. There's a lot more moral implication to things that I think get glossed over, and I think that there's a lot of things that are not okay when you think about it through the lens of an adult. And I mean, I don't want to I I like the magic of Harry Potter, I don't want to take away from it. But the unforgivable curses are, I'm gonna say, a little bit unforgivable.

Daniel 29:52

So Yeah, I mean it's not it's uh yeah, and I I do think what you said about J.K. Rowling, I think the thing that I still to this day will give her credit for, the only thing I will give her credit for anymore, is she did do a great job building a world. And I think that's exemplified. That is shown by what you're saying with all the people who are taking the kernel of good things she did think of, and they're turning it into all these wonderful things.

Angela 30:18

And guess what? Guess what? She absolutely hates.

Daniel 30:21

She hates she hate the fanfiction.

Angela 30:23

She hates it.

Daniel 30:24

So I'm sure she I'm sure she and that's it. She was never that good of a storyteller. So it's like weird that she's annoyed with people taking her tools that she did uh that again, she did do a good job. She created some interesting concepts and a great world. And then for like to be annoyed that people are out enjoying that and frankly doing better things with what she did with it, and expanding upon it in ways that's frustrating.

Angela 30:49

Yeah, I mean, I would see it as a massive compliment, and I would be endlessly curious. And there are there are fan fictions out there in the Harry Potter space. Um, specifically, there's the whole idea that instead of Hermione Granger ending up with Ron Weasley, she should have ended up with Draco Malfoy, which is like a whole other rat's nest that I'm not even going to dive down into. But people have kind of taken things that she left as breadcrumbs. Like it's breadcrumbed in the books that Harry and Draco could have gotten together. There's a whole like tension going on between them in sixth year, but there's also similar tension building, and there's just like this incredibly interesting conversation to be had around Hermione Granger. First of all, like I said, she had some viciousness. She should have been a Slytherin. Had she not been a mug-aborn, she would have been a Slytherin. So people say a Ravenclaw and it's like, no, she was diabolical. And she, like you said, she got shit done. She knew what needed to be done, and she went about getting it done, and she did whatever she had to do. Like that is.

Daniel 31:52

She was always my favorite character. Yeah.

Angela 31:54

Oh, I know, I love her. Um, but there is this really, really interesting, more adult, deeper discussion around kind of like prejudice, and not even kind of 100% prejudice and the like idea of somebody like Draco Malfoy and all of his, he's basically been raised in the cult of ideology, and it goes very deep, and it's, you know, blood supremacy and all this stuff that is like these really um interesting adult topics. And when you put these two characters together and you you can build this whole story around how they might find a redemption path. So I give I give JK Rowling whatever credit for creating a world where these conversations could spread and grow. And it like it's weird to me that she hates that people have done this with her work because I would find it to be the most interesting thing, and I would think it was really like I would be honored. I'd be honored if someone like Angela Mattis wrote fanfiction about my characters.

SPEAKER_03 32:52

Just kidding.

Angela 32:54

Now I'm just being a self-indulgent pot. But um, you know, I mean, I've totally gotten off the path of of um unforgivable curses, but it is really interesting to think about these things through the lens of an adult and to see. Um, also, I feel like we need to talk about the Avada cadavera more in just everyday general life because um there is nothing more fun than being like, oh, someone please Avada me. Whatever. Like it's better be Avada to then go to the bar right now, okay? Like it really gets the point across. Or like, oh my god, this meeting is of the cruciatus curse.

Daniel 33:31

Like, although honestly, at times it could be like, hey, could someone just empires me through this like work day so I don't have to have my brain on?

unknown 33:38

Yes.

Daniel 33:39

That would actually be pretty great. Like, put me on autopilot, you be the one to deal with, like, you know, Bill from HR's email that I don't want to respond to.

Angela 33:49

Okay, so we've really come full circle. We've had a lot of varying conversation in between.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

We started out talking about how the unforgivable curses were so bad, and now suddenly I would like to be Avada. I would like someone to appear imperial me right through my work day.

Angela 34:06

And um, if I don't end this podcast soon, it'll be a cruciatus curse for all involved.

Daniel 34:16

I read you loud and clear. Avada cadavera. Thanks for listening. See you next week.

Angela 34:28

Cursedish is an Ish Media production. It explores stories of alleged curses, historical mysteries, and supernatural claims. While we do investigate the history and the evidence behind these stories, ultimately you should decide for yourself what to believe. If you have questions, comments, or your own accursed tales to share, send us a hex at uh oh at cursedish.com. That's uh oh h all one word at cursdish all one word.com