The Kennedy Curse - Ep. 7

In this episode of Cursed...ish, Angela Mattes and Daniel Stevens investigate one of America’s most infamous allegedly-hexed families: the Kennedys. From the death of Joseph Kennedy Jr. in World War II to the tragedies of Rosemary Kennedy, the assassinations of John F. Kennedy and Robert F. Kennedy, the scandal of Chappaquiddick, and the plane crash that killed JFK Jr., the Kennedy family story is packed with a staggering pattern of death, disaster, scandal, and political fallout. As the hosts trace the rise of America’s closest thing to a royal dynasty, they ask whether the so-called Kennedy curse is truly supernatural, or just what it looks like when power, trauma, and tragedy collide across generations. 

If you’re fascinated by American history, political dynasties, JFK conspiracy-adjacent lore, true crime, plane crashes, assassinations, and famous family tragedies, this episode dives deep into the dark legacy of the Kennedys with the skeptical, curious, macabre tone of Cursed...ish.

Questions, comments, or your own accursed tales to share? Send us a hex at uhoh@cursedish.com.

The hosts of Cursed...ish are not responsible for any misfortunes that may befall you while listening to this podcast. By listening to Cursed...ish, you assume all risk of bad luck, ill omens, and unexplained catastrophes.

*Terms and conditions may be upheld by unknown forces.

Transcript

Angela 0:00

But it is so much more than I originally thought when I started researching into it that I literally had to break them down. I had to break all of the happenings down into categories: assassinations, plane crashes, Ted Kennedy, substance abuse, and fucked up shit.

Daniel 0:16

Uh Ted Kennedy's his own category?

Angela 0:19

Oh yeah. Welcome, Accursed Ones, to Cursed...ish, where we tell stories of the macabre, the unlucky, and the allegedly hexed, searching for the line between that's unfortunate and something is hunting you. I'm Angela Mattes.

Daniel 0:44

And I'm Daniel Stevens. Uh Angela, we need an update on your accursed life. You were a victim of bank fraud recently. How is that going?

Angela 0:55

Hubris recently.

Daniel 0:56

You're laughing about it, so I'm I think it's a good ending.

Angela 0:59

Oh yeah, it's we were such idiots. We fully were sitting here recording this on a podcast of like, I literally verbatim said, well, nothing bad happened last Friday the 13th, so I'm sure it'll be fine for this Friday the 13th. And yes, um, I have resolved my bank fraud issues, but I did definitely have someone steal five-figure some from one of my credit cards that I had to go uh scamper around and figure that out, so that wasn't fun.

Daniel 1:29

But credit cards, so you weren't liable for anything, right?

Angela 1:32

No. If I had been liable, I would have dragged that little tramp down and slapped him. No, I will say to everyone, please be careful. If you get the spidey sense, go with it. Because they were pretty sophisticated about it. Like I was only about 25% idiot. They were pretty solid in their endeavors. So if you're getting like text messages, phone calls that you think is from your bank, call them back on the number from their app. And that is my PSA for today. But I did have one thing happen as I came out of like I literally thought to myself, what else could possibly go wrong? Because as we all know, I'm on planes pretty constantly, pretty much multiple times a week. Thursday the 12th, I was on a plane and it was one of those smaller planes where it's like just kind of like a commuter plane back and forth. And we hit a pocket of turbulence that was worse than anything I've ever experienced in my life. You know, when you're like bouncing around and your stomach is dropping, and it's just like I am not unnerved on planes. My brother is a pilot. He's told me enough about plane mechanisms that I'm like, yeah, these, I mean, they're very safe actually. I thought I was gonna die. I was already imagining you like coming to the next recording of the podcast. Like, like just continuing on. I'm Daniel Stevens. That's the wrap on Angela Mattis.

Daniel 2:49

Oh no. The curse got her. Yeah, I guess I would have had uh content for an episode. Yeah, yeah. Let's hope that never happens. Lord.

Angela 2:59

My best friend died, but I'm gonna have an incredible podcast out of it. Well, anyway, I'm gonna try not to say any more stupid stuff because I'm trying to not jinx myself. Anyway, speaking of plane crashes, we'll actually be talking quite a bit about a few today.

Daniel 3:16

We always do, it seems like it's a common theme for us.

Angela 3:19

I know. Alright, before I dive into it though, I have a preamble that I wrote and we'll see if I can laugh my way through it or get through it like a professional or not.

unknown 3:29

Okay.

Angela 3:30

Whenever I write these things, I'm always like, what am I doing? Like the Harry Potter one when I just like laughed my ass off the entire time. So we'll see how it goes. Okay. When the Founding Fathers signed the Declaration of Independence in 1776, they ruled out all possibility of there being an American royal family. There is one family, though, who over the course of the last 60 years have cemented themselves as the next best thing: a great American dynasty. From their family line, they've brought forth senators, ambassadors, attorney generals, and even one of the most storied and revered presidents and first ladies of the United States of America. But steeped in their mystique of money and power lies a dark and deadly curse. We're talking today about the curse of the Kennedys.

Daniel 4:11

Politics always relevant.

Angela 4:13

Oh my gosh, yes. Um I feel like we all have some baseline understanding of, of course, we know about the assassinations and whatnot.

Daniel 4:21

I mean, uh a family that has been through many.

Angela 4:24

It's way worse than I thought. It's way worse than I thought. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Daniel 4:28

I mean, I I I mean it starts with multiple murders, I feel like. So we're going to be able to do that.

Angela 4:33

And like not even just murders, assassinations. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4:36

God.

Angela 4:38

So the curse is said to impact the direct line of the patriarch of the Kennedy family, Joseph Patrick Kennedy. And I feel like very similar to some other Wikipedias that I have, you know, stumbled down the dark path on. Joseph Kennedy is such an interesting human being. Like we I could we could do a whole episode about him, and I really had to like force myself to edit and paraphrase. He is one of those larger-than-life men. His Wikipedia page reads like a kitchen sink of like your typical prominent historical man profiles. Like he's been a million different things. He's made his fortune three times over in three completely different ways.

Speaker 5 5:16

Oh.

Angela 5:16

Um, like I mean, he's gotta be like an alien or somebody living like some crazy life because first he made a fortune as a stock and commodity market investor. Normal.

Daniel 5:27

Yeah. Which is easy.

Angela 5:29

Yeah. And then he made a fortune in real estate and various businesses. And then randomly he got into Hollywood and started financing several studios. And so all three of those things are pretty whack in terms of I mean, like they're somewhat interconnected. Like he was investing, he was investing in businesses.

Daniel 5:47

But just one of those would be an amazing life achievement career. Yikes.

Angela 5:51

Yes. Overall, this man sounds like he needed a nap. Like he had many careers, many things going on. But like I said, he sounds like one of those people, he was just destined to be in the big leagues. Like so many people had to have said yes to him and given him chances for him to have such diversity in his portfolio. And he was just steps away from power many times. Like when he was the assistant GM of the shipyard for some godforsaken reason, he met Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the assistant secretary of the Navy and future president. Um, yeah, and like he had a lot of proximity to powerful people who then put him in positions of power, which I think is what ultimately like happens is you kind of snowball along.

Daniel 6:32

Yeah, I mean it's it's so much who you know, and it sounds like either a previously well connected or a naturally charismatic person. There's people who are like that. They meet someone and they just everyone loves them, and they just, you know, back then you met people, you had a gut feeling about them, and then you said, Oh, we need someone for this position. Call Patrick. He's a good Joseph. Yeah, sorry. Who's Patrick? Joseph's grandson is Patrick. There's a bunch of Patrick's in the family. I'm gonna be playing fast and loose with Kennedy names this whole time. Yeah.

Angela 7:04

Just say John. Everyone's John. Um, but yeah, and he seems like one of those big like driving forces of a human because he also like he drove the political careers of his sons, but we'll get into that in a little bit later. Um, but like, like I said, his Wikipedia page is kind of funny how it's just every single section is something completely wacky and like wildly different from the thing before. But there was one where the heading is like relationship with father Charles Coughlin. And I I guess I like it was so disconnected that my first thought was like, ooh, daddy, like relationship with Father Charles Coughlin. No, no, it was not romantic, but like it's just an interesting kind of note that will, you know, like it sounds like Joe Kennedy was always very interested and involved in politics, and a lot of his other like business and the things he was doing were sort of like gathering him that power and that proximity. Um, but Father Charles Coughlin, this was an interesting thing in general, just because of how our lives are today. He was like the 1930s priest version of Joe Rogan. And I I honestly kind of thought that that like radio commentary like thing began more with like Rush Limba. But this guy had like a radio podcast basically every week, and he had millions of view of listeners, and he was um he was basically like like he kind of would like fight with the presidents. I think with like Roosevelt, they had a falling out, and it was almost as impactful as like I hate to say it because I don't want to give Joe Rogan any credit for being impactful, but unfortunately he is.

Daniel 8:43

I mean, did we all watch the last election? Yeah, it's very clear he has a huge influence.

Angela 8:47

It was really interesting to learn that these sort of like talking heads and these highly influential talking heads um existed even back in the 1930s, and Joe Kennedy was all over that. He had a relationship with Father Charles Coughlin that was business related and platonic. Although I do wonder, I was literally writing it. I was like, I wonder if there's any fanfiction on AO3 about that.

Daniel 9:11

There's probably fanfiction for everything at this point, isn't there?

Angela 9:14

Yeah.

Daniel 9:15

And if not, you can be a pioneer.

Angela 9:17

I know. I was like, oh, did I just find myself a rare pair and a rare fandom?

unknown 9:22

Yeah.

Angela 9:23

Uh do I want to go down that rat hole? Probably not. But anyway.

Speaker 9:29

I love that it's a rat hole and not a rabbit hole.

Angela 9:31

Oh, it's always a rat hole. Um, let's uh let's back out of the rat hole a bit though. To the year 1914, when Joseph Kennedy married Rose Fitzgerald, who was the daughter of the Boston mayor Jonathan Fitzgerald. So again, this man was kind of like moving and shaken. They settled in Brookline, Massachusetts, which is a suburb of Boston. So, of course, we've heard lots of you know Kennedy lore coming out of Boston. So they came, they grew up in Brookline, and from 1915 through 1932, Rose and Joseph Kennedy had nine children. And it is these children and their descendants and many people surrounding them who will become the victims of the Kennedy curse. And it is a laundry list of things that have happened to this family. And anyone listening right now, like I said, you can probably list off three or four of them without even having to research. But it is so much more than I originally thought when I started researching into it that I literally had to break them down. I had to break all of the happenings down into categories: assassinations, plane crashes, Ted Kennedy, substance abuse, and fucked up shit.

Speaker 3 10:34

Uh Ted Kennedy's his own category. Oh yeah.

Angela 10:37

I mean, yeah, and if you're sitting there wondering why Ted Kennedy, well, who knows? Because I feel like we'll get into it. So coming full circle from my near near fatal, not really, but my turbulence moment. The curse begins with a plane crash in 1944, when Joe and Rose's firstborn son, Joseph Kennedy Jr., a military pilot in World War II, died in a plane explosion in England while on a secret mission. This is a pivotal moment for the Kennedy family because Joseph Jr. was their golden boy. He was smart and he was attractive, and Joe Kennedy Sr. had all his marbles on Joe Jr. He was going to be, he was going to be Camelot. He was going to be the president, he was going to be everything that, you know, Joe Sr. wanted for his sons. And he ended up dying in a plane crash in World War II. And it was, it was really cataclysmic for the family. And honestly, I feel I can only imagine how devastating this death must have been. I mean, he was the golden boy, he was the oldest son. And all of the children were born at that time, so like they're, I'm sure they looked up to him. It really honestly pulled at my heartstrings. And there's a quote from Joe Sr. He said, When Joe Jr. died, all my plans were tied up with young Joe. That has gone smash. And then, of course, there's some um interviews that were done with President Kennedy, and he had wanted to be a reporter, and he ended up being president of the United States, and he said, I went into politics because Joe died. And he added, If anything happened to me tomorrow, my brother Bobby would run. And if Bobby died, Teddy would take over for him, which is like freakishly foreshadowing.

Daniel 12:20

That's uh it's really that has to me almost echoes like a family members' military death being so important to their decision about politics. That has echoes to me of Joe Biden with his son dying, and that like affected his decision to you know, his political decision. So it's like yeah, I mean the idea that a major death in your life could really make you have perspective about something or change you the trajectory of your life, you know. And it's it's it's wild that war, I mean, so how many countless people were killed in World War II. Oh, I know each one is so could be so influential.

Angela 12:52

Right. I mean, like if you think about it, because the Kennedys are so entrenched in American history, if that one plane crash hadn't happened, would any of the other things that that have happened? And even when you think about the ripple effect of the Kennedy assassination, like there's the brain can't fathom. So Joe and Rose's fourth child, their daughter Kathleen Kick Kennedy.

Daniel 13:17

I love that nickname, by the way. That's so cool. Like, where did that come from? I've heard I've heard that.

Angela 13:22

So 1930s, like I just always imagine like Katherine Hepburn like being like Kik.

Daniel 13:28

You know, just like I mean if like I just feel like that would be like the coolest person if you like met some friend. Like, this is my friend Kick.

Angela 13:35

And I like I can totally hear it in that like 1930s movie, like Kik and I were having a cocktail.

Speaker 3 13:41

Exactly, yeah.

Angela 13:42

And Kik said, Honey, don't you want to dance? That kind of a thing, yeah. So Kik was a socialite who ended up becoming the Marchioness of Hardington. Like, get it, girl. She jumped from American royalty literally into British royalty because Joe Sr., in one of his many careers, had ended up as the ambassador to the United Kingdom from 1938 to 1940, and this is the height of Kik's debutante era, and she becomes, of course, the Belle of the Ball in London in 1938. And she met Lord Hardington, and they fell in love, and it was actually kind of like a scandalous thing. Rose Kennedy was not pleased because the Kennedys, of course, are very, very Catholic, and so for her to marry Lord Hardington, and they were very worried about the fact that their children would have to be potentially raised in the Church of England. But it didn't really matter because they got married, and then just four months later, Lord Hardington died in service in Belgium. So, again, a very similar kind of thing we were just talking about, where like World War II, many, many men died, but still, how heartbreaking is that.

Daniel 14:50

He joined the Kennedy family, and four months later.

Angela 14:53

Yeah. And then four years later in 1948, Kik is flying to the south of France with her lover, the eighth Earl Fitzwilliam, and they were going to France to meet with her father in Paris to get his blessing to get married. And it was either after that, I think they were leaving Paris and going to the south of France to go on vacation after having this conversation. And her plane crashed and she died.

Speaker 15:17

Oh god.

Angela 15:18

Again, I think it was extremely upsetting. And I don't think I feel like when you read these things and you're just kind of like reading the succession of what happened, it's very easy to pull yourself out of like the interwoven like family dynamic of it. But it made me just feel so much for the Kennedys because she was like so beloved and um And it's hard.

Daniel 15:38

I mean, both she and Joseph Jr. were both in their late 20s, like so young. Like they both died at almost the same age, it looks like basically looking just looking at their birth and death years like that. Imagine you know, you have one, your oldest son dies in his late 20s of a plane crash, and then a few years later, one of their daughters dies at nearly the same age, like just two way taken so early from plane crashes that I can't imagine. I mean, I don't know what the statistical, you know, where they've flying in planes a lot, but for one family to have two plane crash victims.

Angela 16:07

And I know that JFK was very, very distraught over her death. Like he was he was very distraught. But yeah, so before we get into where it gets worse in the whole political atmosphere, there is one kind of let's take a pit stop in the fucked up shit category, and talk about what happened to Rosemary. Rosemary was their oldest daughter. She was born in 1918, and as a child, she had developmental delays. And if we pull ourselves back into the time period, like the 20s or even you know the 30s in her young adult years, I am curious what you'll think about this because I I don't know enough about it to like form a strong conclusion or opinion, but I know that a lot of people have opinions about this. But if we put ourselves in the time period, as she was getting into her adult years, she was becoming increasingly irritable and difficult. And in response to these issues, Joe Kennedy had her lobotomized in 1941 when she was 23 years of age, which is horrific. And I am in no way considering any kind of pass. But at the same time, I think that it has when people hear that they think that he did it as this like horrible, evil parent who just wanted to hide her away. And I I kind of wonder if it was more of one of those things where I would suspect it's a desperate moment. A desperate thing. I'm sure some doctor said this will help her. Like it was lobotomies were very popular at that time.

Daniel 17:31

Yeah, I my understanding is that that has long gone out of fashion in the other. Yeah, because obviously it didn't work. But just because something seems crazy, like so many surgeries are them like ripping apart things in your body and doing stuff like they were trying to figure out how our brain worked. I I mean, they there were people that saw like improvements from horrible issues and all that. But yeah, I mean, obviously uh looking back on that, it seems like barbarism.

Angela 17:57

I know, I feel like I kind of have a soft spot in my heart for the Kennedys after really reading about what happened to that family, and I d I can't imagine that Joe would have been doing it maliciously. I think he was trying to help his child.

Daniel 18:08

Like today they still do electroconvulsive therapy. Like that seems like, oh, that must be an old timey thing, and it's like, well, I i it's very complicated, I think, is is Yeah. And we're not doctors. And then and the doctors back then were often doing the not doctors either.

Angela 18:24

They didn't know the hell they were doing it. But many doctors were they were truly trying to find ways to help people who were in agonizing psychological pain, and you know, and but I do want to put the disclaimer out there that if there is something that I did not find in my research, because I do know just kind of tangentially that there's a lot of like discourse around that whole thing. So Rosemary actually spent the rest of her life being cared for in an institution in Jefferson, Wisconsin. And um Eunice, who I believe became Eunice Shriver later on, she was very close with Rosemary and she had a lot of involvement in the Special Olympics because of her relationship with Rosemary. So um that is kind of one of the the sadder outcomes of a Kennedy child, but did have some positivity there towards the end.

Daniel 19:09

Yeah, Rosemary Kennedy's story was always it was something I know, you know, I learned about it much later in life. I had heard all the other, you know, the more famous Kennedy stories, but her story was always the one that kind of bummed me out the most. She seemed like such just like an average person, more so because she never had any of the political career or any of the other things that so many of her family members had, and yet she still had such a unfortunate life.

Angela 19:36

Yeah. So if we're going to go chronologically, before we really I know we have a big, huge whopper of a section to discuss, but a few things happened before we can really dig into the elephant in the room. Um on October 3rd, 1955, Ethel Kennedy, the wife of Robert F. Kennedy's parents, George and Ann Scacel, were both killed in a plane crash in Union City, Oklahoma.

Daniel 20:01

Another plane crash?

Angela 20:03

I know. And then unfortunately, um John F. Kennedy and and Jackie Kennedy, I think this has been a little bit less like, you know, I didn't know too much about this in history, but they're actually one of, I think to this day, the only or very it's a very rare thing for the president to be having children while in office.

Speaker 5 20:26

Yeah.

Angela 20:27

And I didn't know this, but JFK Jr. was born a few months after um JFK took office, and then um they'd had a daughter who had died at birth, Arabella. So they were having a lot of kind of problems with with this because then a few months before JFK's assassination, Jackie had a son, Patrick Bouvier Kennedy, and he died of infant respiratory distress syndrome syndrome two days after his premature birth, and this happened just months before Kennedy was assassinated. Like I didn't realize that Jackie was pregnant that late in his first term, because I think he was almost to the end of his first term when he was assassinated, and but I had heard about Patrick because again, I think it was very uh heartbreaking for JFK and for Jackie to I mean, they had already experienced child loss before with Arabella, and I think yeah, and then they had of course um JFK Jr. and Caroline, but I think it was really um difficult for them to go through this loss with that.

Daniel 21:34

I can't imagine. I I mean I can't imagine doing that and also being the president. Like imagine doing that just as an average person, and then imagine doing that in the job that you know they show how stressful it ages people like a decade and four years. And it's like your I mean I can't especially when you've gone through so much uh trauma.

Angela 21:53

Like it's one thing to I think that's the thing that I think about the most is like trauma is So deep and prevalent, and it impacts. I mean, like the body keeps the score, is something I think a lot about because like trauma is like is taxing on your body, and so he's gone through so much and is only about to get worse.

Daniel 22:17

I mean, it makes me think of the Lincolns, they lost their son as well.

Angela 22:20

Yeah.

Daniel 22:21

And I mean, and and Mary Todd famously, like you know, was was never never the same.

Angela 22:27

Never right again. Yeah. And I don't think Lincoln was ever and I think there's a lot of parallels between Lincoln and JFK, and I bet I mean I I saw a little bit of mention of like parallels between them, but I didn't dig too deeply into it, but I'm sure that that some parallels could be found there.

Daniel 22:44

I mean there there's there is a large parallel. I mean, yeah, multiple in the way that their presidencies ended as well.

Angela 22:51

Yes, yeah. Well, speaking of, unfortunately have come to the moment. So on a on November 22nd, 1963, President John F. Kennedy was in a presidential motorcade in Dallas, Texas, when a sniper shot him in the head where he sat in the open car next to his wife, Jackie Kennedy.

Daniel 23:09

Or so they want us to think.

Angela 23:10

I know, I literally, it was the day that will go down an infamy, rife with speculation and conspiracy theories. Um, but of course, that was a massively pivotal moment in American history. And after everything the Kennedy family had already gone through to have to experience now the third death of a child in the family at this scale, at this level, and with this amount of brutality of literally the entire world saw him die horrifically.

Daniel 23:39

I yeah, I mean, I mean, and poor Jackie. I mean that that just the video we've all seen a zillion times growing up in America is just so so heinous.

Angela 23:48

The pink Chanel suit, yeah. So kind of thinking back to that quote before when he said with Joe dying, he had to go into politics, and if something happened to him, you know, Bobby would go into politics, and then Ted. Um Bobby already was in politics. He was JFK's attorney general. And um after JFK, after JFK's death and after his term as attorney general ended, he went on to become a senator. So Senator Robert F. Kennedy, um, this was I believe four or five years later, was on the campaign trail, making his way up the Democratic ticket to be the next president of the United States, and follow in JFK's footsteps. And while out on the campaign trail, he had given a speech at the Ambassador Hotel in LA. And after the speech, he was threading through the kitchens of the hotel, taking a shortcut from the ballroom to the press room, when a man named Sirhan Sirhan opened fire and shot him three times, wounding him fatally. So he followed in his brother's footsteps, not only as he got into politics and sought to become the next president of the United States, but also in his own assassination.

Daniel 24:54

And I mean that that was kind of a spark that led a powder keg politically. That I mean that was the 1968 convention that led to all the you know rioting and unrest in Chicago. I mean, that yeah, it was I mean it was a family tragedy, but it was I mean, he was absolutely another national tragedy.

Angela 25:11

Well, after that, like Jackie Kennedy, she took Carolyn and JFK Jr. and said, if they're killing Kennedys, then my children are targets. I want to get out of this country. And that's she moved to Greece, she met the Greek Greek shipping magnate Aristotle Anassis, and they moved to the private island of Scorpios, and like she got them, and I think about it, I'm like, yeah, I'd be getting the heck out of, I would never be setting foot on a plane again, and I would be getting out of Dodge.

Daniel 25:41

Planes and politics, neither, neither planes nor politics anymore for my family if I were them. Yeah.

Angela 25:48

So this brings us to our next category, which is Ted. Ted Kennedy.

Speaker 1 25:54

Yeah, its own category. He stayed in politics. We'll see what happens.

Angela 25:58

So, U.S. Senator Ted Kennedy, first off, he survived a plane crash that killed one of his aides as well as the pilot. So this was in 1964. The plane was on its way to the Democratic State Convention in Springfield, and it crashed in an apple orchard near South Hampton, Southampton, Massachusetts. And he was like pulled from the wreckage, and he spent five months in hospital recovering from a broken back, which is really interesting because JFK had a broken back from an injury in the war. So it's like really weird how these things are happening, and there's a lot of like, like, remember JFK? It was known that he had a lot of back issues, and there's like even rumors that he was like extremely high on painkillers for a lot of his presidency. Um yeah, so like what's weird to me about what happens to this family is how like unoriginal this curse is, if it's a curse. Um, the same things keep happening to people.

Daniel 26:58

But if you think of it from a efficiency standpoint, from the curse perspective, it's I found an option that works. If that's how we're looking at it.

Angela 27:11

Yeah, and following the crash, Robert F. Kennedy, he apparently remarked to his aide Ed Guthman, somebody up there doesn't like us. Like, yeah, something is awry. Like um, but then Ted, um, really the kind of the big one that I feel like I don't know if enough people know about this, so I guess this might be a learning moment for many. But we have another multisyllabic curse-related word to add to our lexicon right next to Triskodecap, and it is Chappaquittic.

Daniel 27:41

Oh, Chappaquitic. Oh, Chappaquittick. Those New England place names.

Angela 27:47

Yeah. But um for So Chap Aquitic, I learned of this because there was a movie about it a few years ago, which I didn't see the movie.

Daniel 27:55

Uh, I was gonna bring up a movie when you started talking about Chappaquitic because one of my favorite 1990s political thrillers like starts with a Chapaquitic style scene and like that kicks off the story. It's the movie The Contender. Joan Allen plays the first female voice presidential candidate. She's amazing, it's a wonderful movie. Gary Oldman plays like this super sleazy lobbyist for the Republicans. It's a bit you need to watch it. It's a great movie.

Angela 28:19

Okay. I have definitely not seen this, but now I want to. Well, let's talk about what happened at Chappaquitic because there is a much more recent scene in a TV show that I think is very Chappaquittick esque. And I don't know if it was specifically designed to be Chappaquitti-esque or if it's just an easy plot line for these folks.

Daniel 28:37

I mean, it's such a strange story, so sorry, I'll let you get to that.

Angela 28:40

Yes. And this is an excerpt. So I want to give credit where credit is due, and I am reading this from the Wikipedia page of the Chappaquittick incident. Kennedy left a party on Chappaquittock Island off the eastern end of Martha's Vineyard at 11.15 p.m. on July 18th, 1969. He stated that his intent was to immediately take Capeckni, which is Mary Joe, if I'm mispronouncing her last name, I sincerely apologize to this woman's family. But Mary Jo Capeck to a ferry landing and return to return to a hotel in Edgar Town. But he made it he made a wrong turn onto a dirt road leading to a one-lane bridge. After his car skidded off the bridge into the pond, Kennedy swam free and maintained that he tried to rescue Capeckni from the submerged car but could not. Capeckney's death could have happened anytime between about 11.30 p.m. Friday and 1 a.m. Saturday. An off-duty deputy sheriff stated he saw a car matching Kennedy's license plate at 12 40 a.m. Kennedy departed from the crash site and failed to report the incident to the police until after 10 a.m. on Saturday. In the meantime, a diver retrieved Kapeckni's body from the Kennedy car shortly before 9 a.m. that same day. So what's interesting about this, and first of all, for the TV reference, um, this is very similar to something that happened in Succession, where Kendall Roy is driving with a waiter from a party that he's been at and he drives off the road, like they're doing drugs or whatever, and he drives off the road and the server ends up dying, and it's it kind of becomes like this point of power for Logan Roy over Kendall because he's like blackmail. Whereas for this, this actually had a different outcome. Ted Kennedy pled guilty, and I think there was a lot of speculation around why did he take so long to report it the next morning, which I'm sure was he was absolutely freaking out. Um but I mean it's irreprehensible, but still at the same point, I don't think that's the thing that gets me the most.

Daniel 30:38

But didn't he like he went back to his like his he went to his family's like lake house and talked with his family first, right?

Angela 30:45

Yeah, like he clearly would I feel like I hate when people really pick apart the way that people react to something like that happening because even like when you think about like the um Idaho 4, everyone is like, why did those like why did the girls wait until like noon to even call the police? And it's like you don't think things like that happened, or you don't know how to act in those situations, or like I feel like anybody like you're in shock, you're freaking out. So I'm not as upset. I don't think that that's as big of a thing, but it was apparently a really big deal. Everyone was like, he didn't respond to that situation the way we thought he should have. But on a court hearing July on July 25th, 1969, Kennedy pleaded guilty to a charge of leaving the scene of an accident and received a two-month suspended jail sentence. In a televised statement that same evening, Kennedy said his conduct immediately after the crash had made no sense to me at all, and that he regarded his failure to report the crash immediately as indefensible. A January 5th, 1970 judicial inquest concluded that Kennedy and Capecne had not intended to take the ferry and that Kennedy had intentionally turned towards the bridge, operating his vehicle negligently, if not recklessly, and at too high a speed for the hazard which the bri bridge posed in the dark. This is where I'm like, what the fuck? The judge stopped short of recommending charges, and a grand jury convened on April 6th, returning no indictments. Like, this is one of the rare times in history that somebody is like, Yes, I need to take accountability for my actions and and like pleads guilty and is like, yeah, I, you know, it's indefensible. And of course, everyone's like, Oh, but you're fine, honey, it's okay.

Daniel 32:26

But it I I mean, he pled guilty to leaving the scene of an accident. He did not plead guilty to some sort of reckless endangerment or vehicular manslaughter, and I think one could argue he thought, let me plead to leaving the scene of a crime, which is sort of like you often hear, like, oh, people get they plead to like disturbing a body when they like think someone murdered someone, but they can only prove they move their body or whatever. Yeah. And it's sort of like, okay, well, you pled down to something because I I don't know. I I would struggle to be Ted Kennedy or someone in Ted Kennedy's case or situation and not feel unbearable moral uh guilt for what I did. Yeah, I get I don't I can't understand how you wouldn't sit there and think, well, I killed someone with my driver.

Angela 33:13

We're just in such bottom of the barrel right now that I'm like scraping at anything to be like, well, he did take some responsibility, but no, I understand what you're saying.

Daniel 33:22

So I mean, because I I I can't, I mean, I'm just trying if I like killed a friend of mine while driving, I just would be like, Well, I don't even know what my life is anymore. I don't know how I'd go on. I I and I know I'm not in that situation, so I shouldn't judge people who are in that situation, but I don't know if I called what he did taking accountability.

Angela 33:41

Yeah, okay, that's fair.

Daniel 33:43

But it's And also I don't think anyone would argue that this country likes to prosecute people who kill people with vehicles. It it very much is a kind of a free for all. You if your driving kills someone, it's very hard to get legally held liable. Like laws very much protect drivers in this country, and I imagine they were more protective back in the 60s and 70s.

Angela 34:05

Well, I did not specifically know that, so thank you for adding a bit more nightmare sauce to my.

Daniel 34:15

I am an avid. Like if I if I dominate the city.

Angela 34:23

I almost got hit by a car like a few weeks ago. Literally, when I was on the phone trying to sort out my bank fraud, I almost got completely wiped off the face of this planet by a car.

Daniel 34:32

Truly, when I when it comes to traffic, I assume every car is going to hit me, and they never, and you know, I it is my responsibility to avoid cars.

Angela 34:39

Oh, I'm the opposite. I assume it's their responsibility to not commit vehicular manslaughter. But apparently I was expecting too much one day out of the residents of Chicago. Okay, anyways. Um, but it did, this whole situation did cost Ted Kennedy any shot at becoming president. Because I think, you know, for any of these Kennedy boys at some point in time, it seems like it's on their radar, even though the rate of assassination is somewhat high in that family. For some reason, that's what's wild to me, is like none of these people, and I shouldn't, none of the Kennedys seem to like stop doing things that were getting like at some point, because even Ted said he like then he said that on the night of the incident he wondered whether some awful curse did actually hang over all the Kennedys. Like they were aware it was talked about. Like the whole Kennedy curse thing is not something that was made up recently, and obviously, I feel like these are very, very smart people. You would think you would like sit down with a little like timeline and a little scatter plot and say, huh, something fucky is going on. And you would maybe steer clear of planes, and you would maybe steer clear of presidencies, and you would maybe just like go hang out in Nantucket and not drive, not drink, just go sit in a bubble of plastic like bubble wrap.

Daniel 35:59

Angela, I know you've seen the final destination movies.

Speaker 1 36:02

You're basically asking them to pull the final destination move where you go live in like the padded room.

Angela 36:07

Yes, and uh Final Destination V, it worked for that woman until it didn't, until some dumbass bitch showed up and then she got spiked in the head. Spoilers to anybody who hasn't seen, who hasn't had the pleasure of seeing Final Destin Final Destination V. Ugh, okay. Back to business.

Speaker 3 36:29

Where were we?

Angela 36:30

Back to the business of curses, because we are not done, not even remotely close. So if we're continuing again down sort of like the chronological path, a few other scatterings of things happen in the 70s and 80s. August 13th, 1973, Joseph P. Kennedy II was the driver of a Jeep in Nantucket, Massachusetts that crashed and left his passenger Pam Kelly paralyzed.

Daniel 36:52

Oh, just never get in a car with a Kennedy.

Angela 36:55

Never, never. Wow. Um, on April 25th, 1984, David A. Kennedy, the son of Robert F. Kennedy, died of a drug overdose in a Palm Beach, Florida hotel room, which Robert F. Kennedy had 11 children with Ethel Kennedy. And like that is a whole other line of tragedy.

Speaker 5 37:14

Yeah.

Angela 37:14

Like they he had a lot, like a lot of his children have died as well. Um, and then getting into the 90s, April 1st, 1991, William Kennedy Smith was arrested and charged with the rape of a young woman at the Kennedy Estate in Palm Beach, Florida. And although the subsequent trial attracted extensive media coverage, Smith was acquitted. So fuck him. Fuck him into a curse. December 31st, 1997, Michael Lemoyne Kennedy, who again was the son of Robert F. Kennedy, died in a skiing accident after crashing into a tree in Aspen, Colorado. Yikes. So now we're to the late 90s, and this takes us to one of I think the most tragic, and to me one that I have lived through and remember in my lifetime: Impacts of the Kennedy Curse, which is the plane crash of JFK Jr., Carolyn Bissett Kennedy, and her sister Lauren Bissett. I still remember this happening. And I feel like I I was still pretty young at the time. I was I was pretty young, but at the same time, I think we need to kind of set the scene for the fact that JFK Jr. is just he was gorgeous. He was smart, he was in politics, he had his magazine.

Daniel 38:24

The way I knew him is he was on Seinfeld. He was like the in an episode of Seinfeld, Elaine lusts over him and like is like wants to date him. Like I that's how I was introduced to JFK Jr. when I was I used to watch Seinfeld as a kid.

Angela 38:37

He was like a full-fledged celebrity, and he had many, like he was in a long-term relationship with Daryl Hannah. That was kind of like your typical A-list celebrity relationship. And then, of course, he married Carolyn Bissett, and she was a fashion icon, and their, you know, their wedding and their marriage was very, very heavily documented and reported on, and they were constantly being chased around by paparazzi. But he was he was kind of like another golden boy of the Kennedy family. He could have done, he was on his way and doing so many things, and he was influential and he was interesting. And it's like interesting how he kind of was an amalgamation of like JFK Jr., his father had wanted to be a reporter, and he had George the magazine, and he was known for like the reporting of that magazine, but they also they were they could be kind of subversive and incendiary, and they had really interesting pieces. There was even a piece that was in George that was kind of about the Kennedys in general, and it talked about some of the bad behavior of like Michael Kennedy, who I said he passed away, or Michael Lemoy Kennedy, who had the skiing accident before that. He and um JFK Jr. like they kind of had a little back and forth because JFK Jr. was not afraid to report on things, and there was some bad behavior between Michael and one of other one of Robert F. Kennedy's other sons. So George magazine, I think I remember at the time it kind of being a little bit controversial, but he did really interesting stories. Like he did an issue in September of 1997 that was centered on temptation, and he talked about two of his cousins. So Michael Lemoyne Kennedy, who I just mentioned had died in a skiing accident. This was prior to his death, um, and Joseph P. Kennedy, and they kind of had some gross things that were getting, you know, into the news because of course the Kennedy families are all of them are often in politics or in some sort of places of power. Like it was, you know, things like having affairs and and things like that. Um but he said that both of his cousins had become poster boys for bad behavior and he aired it out, and he, you know, he didn't give them the Kennedy treatment. He he put their story into the light it deserved to be put in because they were doing gross stuff and they deserve to be called out. But I guess um that that ruffled some feathers, and um Joseph P. Kennedy II, his cousin paraphrased the famous quote from JFK and said, Ask not what your cousin Ask not what you can do for your cousin, but what you can do for his magazine. And so a little spice back and forth there. But anyway, yeah, so it was like incredibly devastating. I remember my mom being so upset, and I remember the news just being on. It's like the few times, it's like the Princess Diana dying, JFK Jr. dying. Um, there are like a couple of those moments where it's like the TV stays on. I was like 9-11, the TV stays on for like weeks at a time and it's Columbine, and it's really, you know, just such a pivotal moment in history. But on July 16th, 1999, Kennedy departed from Fairfield, New Jersey at the control of his um Piper Saratoga aircraft, which is like a small, like four-seater kind of kind of aircraft. He was traveling with his wife Carolyn and his sister-in-law Lauren Bissett, and they were going to be dropping Lauren off at Martha's Vineyard and then continuing on to Hyannis Port, which is like the Kennedy compound in Massachusetts, to attend the cousin the wedding of his cousin Rory Kennedy. And so Kennedy had checked in with a control tower at Martha's Vineyard Airport, but after that, the plane was reported missing and it failed to arrive. And essentially, he lost control of the plane, and there was um spatial disorientation, and they descended into the water and crashed into the ocean, and were within a couple of weeks their bodies were found on the ocean floor. So that was like massively tragic. I r remember that.

Daniel 42:42

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember that being such a big story. And yeah, I was I remember being a kid and like being a little confused, like, wait, which who Kennedy? Who is this exactly? Like, I was still so young, I just but I do remember like the plane crash, right? Yeah, or like all the there was like footage of them searching for the plane and everything.

Angela 42:59

Yeah, it's interesting. Like, I remember not really knowing necessarily who he was. I remember that also with Princess Diana, like not really knowing who she was, because we were so young, and then that whole thing telling a kid who a princess is is a little easier to imagine than oh, it's like the son of an old president. I don't know, I feel like they're both on par.

Daniel 43:17

I guess.

Angela 43:18

Um so if we're continuing again, like I said, down our chronological path, nothing really happens that I think stood out as like kind of part of the curse until 2012 on May 16th when Mary Richardson Kennedy, the first wife of Robert F. Kennedy Jr., died by suicide on the grounds of her home. And I'm not sure if I would consider that as being part of the curse per se, but I wanted to mention it as well because there's been a lot of with the file, with the Epstein files and things, there's been things written about Mary that again, speculation alleged, but there were some things in the files that maybe made it seem like When somebody emailed um Jeffrey Epstein that Mary had been found dead in her backyard, his response was, whoops. Then on April 2nd, 2020, Maeve Kennedy McKean, the granddaughter of Robert F. Kennedy, disappeared with her eight-year-old son Gideon during a short canoe trip in Chesapeake Bay, and their bodies were recovered later that week. They had both died from accidental drowning in the turbulent water. Um, and then the other most recent one that I was on the fence about mentioning, but there was a comment or like a quote that I think kind of brings everything full circle, is just recently, December 30th, 2025, Tatiana Schlossberg, the granddaughter of John F. Kennedy, died at the age of 35 following complications from acute myeloid leukemia. And I personally kind of also have a soft spot in my heart for the Schlossbergs. I if anyone has seen Jack Sloshberg and really kind of the the way he has put smiles on many people's faces across his social media accounts, I wanted to steer clear of his family because I know that what they're going through was really, really terrible losing Tatiana to leukemia.

Daniel 45:12

That's that's so tragic.

Angela 45:14

But she wrote when she publicly announced her diagnosis in The New Yorker, she wrote, I have added a new tragedy to my mother's life, to our family's life, and there's nothing I can do to stop it.

Daniel 45:25

Oh my god. That's heartbreaking.

Angela 45:27

I know.

Daniel 45:28

But there's nothing I can do to stop it.

Angela 45:31

Yes. And now Jack is running for um for office. I'm not sure exactly which office he's running for. And I'm like, oh, please leave Jack Schlossberg alone. Please let us just have Jack. Like, please don't let anything bad happen to him in terms of some of these, you know, the typical curse of Kennedy's running for office.

Speaker 5 45:53

Mm-hmm.

Daniel 45:54

It when it comes down to it, it's sort of one of these, like, it's a powerful family. They're probably flying on lots of planes, they're politicians. That's I mean, they're not the only politicians to ever be assassinated. I mean, it's two from one family. That's assassinations are rare. Yeah.

Angela 46:09

This is a lot. Like, it is a laundry list, like I said. It can be categorized into four categories and probably more, but I was just, you know.

unknown 46:18

Yeah.

Angela 46:19

Although there is one thing that I that I feel like I either have some feedback for the curse, or maybe it's not a curse at all. Why the fuck is the universe being so kind to Robert F. Kennedy Jr.? Like, why has it allowed him to slip through through the cracks and like now we have had him unleashed upon us? Like, he has had brain worms, he has eaten bears, he has gone anti-vax, he has he hasn't seen an ounce of sunlight, he didn't slurp up into his leather face, and now he's out here becoming like we are all just victims of the Kennedy curse now. Like, Bob's brain worm really, really unleash it on us.

Daniel 46:58

This is the final twist of the Kennedy curse. Yeah, we are we are now all suffering under that, yeah.

Angela 47:05

Yeah, it's like morphed into 2.0. This is like the new strain of the curse. And I, for one, am displeased.

Daniel 47:13

I I yeah, I'm feeling pretty cursed by that whole situation right now.

Angela 47:16

So So I guess that does bring us to of you know the pivotal question of each episode. Do you think the Kennedy curse is real?

Daniel 47:27

I think it's a large, powerful family. And any large not any, but a large, powerful family is going to likely have more attention, therefore more notice of the bad things happening. I mean, all families have people who die unfortunately in bad situations.

Angela 47:43

You know, I can think of You don't think it's a curse?

Daniel 47:46

I I don't I I think it's I think it's a a narrative. I think I th I mean what are we saying? I disagree. What do we think the the impetus or the like where do we think the nexus of the curse is just a powerful family, you know, gets what they not deserve, but you know, like karmic retribution for their power and success, or or is there a specific person who or like thing who cursed? Like, is it the Republicans who hate a democratic dynasty, you know?

Angela 48:12

I don't know. I think um, well, they sure took one of one of them back into their fold. Um I think that maybe there's more to like the whole, like it seems to have started with Joseph Kennedy, but I think that this is an unprecedented amount of just horrible things happening, and I don't think it's like I know like I've always kind of been one to jump to like there's power, there's money, things just kind of seem to percolate in those in those spaces. And I know with like the number 13 I was full on like that a million things could happen. It's you know, you just kind of throw a dart at a point and you'll find something. I think this is a curse. I think that this is beyond the pale. I think what's happened to the Kennedy family is far beyond what anyone could have deserved, could have brought upon them. I do not think that this is this is beyond the realm of karmic. And once again, if I think there is a real curse, I would like to put in a recommendation for said curse. Um get that get that brainworm chomping, baby. Let's go. I'm just kidding. Full disclaimer, legal disclaimer, if anything happens to Robert F. Kennedy Jr., I had nothing to do with it.

Daniel 49:23

I mean, yeah, I I mean I I see where you're coming from. It is like, I mean, you laid out quite a list, and it's this is only since World War II. I mean, yeah, the first tragedy was a World War II death. So it's this is yeah, it is only a lot, a lot more. I mean, how many? Yeah, several plane crashes, several assassinations. I mean, I see where you're coming from.

Angela 49:48

Many.

Daniel 49:49

Yeah.

Angela 49:50

Yes. Well, then I guess if we can't come to an agreement, then I would say it falls squarely in the category of cursed-ish.

Daniel 49:58

Maybe cursed, maybe not. See you next week.

Angela 50:08

Cursedish is an ish media production. It explores stories of alleged curses, historical mysteries, and supernatural claims. While we do investigate the history and the evidence behind these stories, ultimately you should decide for yourself what to believe. If you have questions, comments, or your own accursed tales to share, send us a hex at uhoh@cursedish.com. That's uh oh all one word at cursedish all one word .com.