The 27 Club - Ep. 18

What happens when some of the most brilliant musicians in history all seem to meet the same tragic end?

In this episode of Cursed...ish, Angela and Daniel dig into the legend of the 27 Club: the eerie cultural grouping of famous artists who died at just 27 years old. From Rolling Stones founder Brian Jones to Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, and Amy Winehouse, the so-called “Big Six” of the 27 Club left behind music that changed the world, and deaths that made people wonder whether fame, addiction, tragedy, and coincidence had formed something darker.

Along the way, we explore Woodstock, death by misadventure, the white lighter myth, the toxic machinery of celebrity, the haunting legacy of artists gone too soon, and why 27 became the age people started whispering about as cursed.

Was the 27 Club really a supernatural pattern, or is the true curse something much more human, like fame, substance abuse, mental health struggles, and an industry that burns through young talent?

We’re not here to tell you curses are real. But when Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, and Amy Winehouse all wind up in the same tragic mythology, we are absolutely here to ask why the story still refuses to die.

Questions, comments, or your own accursed tales to share? Send us a hex at uhoh@cursedish.com.

The hosts of Cursed...ish are not responsible for any misfortunes that may befall you while listening to this podcast. By listening to Cursed...ish, you assume all risk of bad luck, ill omens, and unexplained catastrophes.

*Terms and conditions may be upheld by unknown forces.

Transcript

Angela 0:00

I think misadventure is like you die in like an adventurous way that goes wrong.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Again, my point. That's what I'm I'm pre-filling out my death certificate.

Angela 0:23

Welcome, accursed ones, to Cursedish, a podcast about misfortune, mystery, and the stories we tell when bad luck stops feeling random. I'm Angela Mattis.

Daniel 0:32

And I'm Daniel Stevens.

Angela 0:33

So we are going to talk about a curse that I feel like we have seen play out in our lifetime. We have them all twice now, but for sure there's one that really resonates with me. It's the 27th Club. And I remember when Amy Winehouse died and she entered the unfortunate group that is the 27 Club. And so I feel like around that time people were talking about it quite a bit, and um Yeah, I'm like vague. Yeah.

Daniel 1:08

But you're definitely gonna have to do some 27 Club 101 for me and maybe some of our listeners, because I'm I'm not quite sure exactly what it is and who's in it. I just like you said, when Amy Winehouse passed away, I do remember that being part of the story.

Angela 1:24

Yeah. Well, the bulk of so for starters, the 27 Club is um a club that is comprised of a lot of musicians who all have died at the age of 27. And like I'm talking like major, major musicians, which it's kind of crazy because 27 is so young, I don't think I had done anything at 27. And these are people who like made a real dent in the music industry. And I mean, there's the big six. So Amy Winehouse, she died in 2011, but there actually was um between 1969 and 1971, um, four out of the six people in the big six passed away at the age of twenty seven. So that's really when it first became notorious because if you think about it, if you're living in that time period, and that was you know a great age of music that was Woodstock happened in 1969. Um, and Janice Joplin, she played at Woodstock, Jimi Hendrix headlined Woodstock, we'll talk about that a little bit more. So, like these names were huge. And it was Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Janice Joplin, Kurt Cobain, and Amy Winehouse who make up the big six of the 27 Club. All of them died at the age of 27.

Daniel 2:38

That is wild that they were all only 27. They seem like such, I mean, they were such gigantic names, such titans of music history, and they were only 20. Like, they if I met one of them now, I'd be like, oh, you young whippersnapper, you don't even know anything.

Angela 2:54

Like 20 I remember, like, obviously when you're a teenager, 27 sounds so old, but like 27 is so young. It honestly is really heartbreaking because uh, I mean, I'm most, if not all, of them are in the music hall of fame, which is just uh like again, just unbelievable a feat to have been that young. Um and to have created so much and been so talented. It is and like the ones who stand out in my book of as I was researching and even just you know, from we we still listen to their music, we know who they are. Jimi Hendricks was one of those like prodigies. Um Amy Winehouse, I still remember when she first came onto the scene, it was she had that immediate X factor. We'll talk a little bit more about her, of course. Um, but before we get back around to Amy, I want to talk about in order of their deaths, everyone in the big six.

Daniel 3:53

So there's a big six, are there other like lesser members of the 27 club, or is it mostly because of these six and they just are also so big they call them the big six?

Angela 4:06

Um, there's like a I mean, I'm sure there are other people who have been musicians, but these are the ones who've been in that echelon. The only others who I think kind of were like honorable mention is um Jean-Michel Bascuat. Granted, he's known mostly for his art. Yeah, but he died when he was 27. So um, and then also the founding member of The Grateful Dead called Ron Pigpen McKernan. He died of a gastrointestinal intestinal hemorrhage in 1973 at the age of 27.

Daniel 4:38

Oh gosh.

Angela 4:38

Um what was interesting is that I mean, and I guess, you know, we talk about this a little bit of like the lightning strikes of like you throw any, or I guess not a lightning strike per se, but like you throw any dart at a number on a wall and you can find some sort of a pattern. There is like a 26 club. Um, and but I was looking through the 26 club to see if it was maybe an interesting angle, and like nobody in the 26 club is anybody that is really notable except for and this one is like one of my personal like great losses is Mac Miller.

Daniel 5:10

Yeah, yeah.

Angela 5:11

And if he had been just a little bit older, I feel like he would have like kicked up the whole 27 club, like if he had been one year older. Because Mac Miller, like I've been thinking about him a lot as I research like I'm a huge Mac Miller fan, and I I think the only celebrities that I have really truly felt like somebody died are like Anthony Bourdain and Mac Miller. Like, I was so I I mean am constantly so sad about Mac Miller dying. He was in this group, like, of musical prodigies. Like he was incredible, but he was 26. Um so Brian Jones, who is the only one in the group that I hadn't heard of, but that's really mainly because I am not like a huge Rolling Stones person, but I'm sure that's honestly just like my own. I don't have you heard of Brian Jones before.

Daniel 6:02

I mean, I wouldn't have been able to place him by name if in if I were on Jeopardy. Um, I mean, I know of the stones, I know about them generally. So yeah, I'm sure the same with you. It's like, oh yeah, from the stones.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Although literally, like one of the one of my like favorite songs is a Rolling Stones song.

Angela 6:19

I'm like, Rolling Stones, who are they? I don't care. But She's a Rainbow is a song that I think is like a perfect song.

Daniel 6:25

But then also, yeah, so I mean like I guess they're the you know, the Rolling Stones have been an yeah, they've been icons for decades, and he obviously Brian Jones was not a long-serving member of the Rolling Stones if he died at 27. So unfortunate for him that he's a little lost to history, I assume.

Angela 6:45

Sure. I kind of hope that he didn't write She's a Rainbow because, like I said, it's a perfect song, and you know who wasn't perfect? Brian Jones.

Daniel 6:54

Oh, like I'm sorry to say maybe the internet has done him dirty.

Angela 6:59

I don't want to like denigrate his legacy, but I was not impressed by this man. Um so again, like I said, he was the founder and original art, original guitarist of the Rolling Stones. And I mean, this is a very common theme throughout this episode. Um, he developed alcohol and drug problems through the uprise of you know the Rolling Stones as they get out on the road and they, you know, get into that lifestyle. Of course, it's pretty much like par for the course. Um and as he be as he gets, you know, more and more into this alcohol and drug addiction, his performance in the studio became increasingly reliable. And so he actually ended up having a diminished role in the band, and he was dim dismissed by the Rolling Stones. So he was replaced by a guitarist named Mick Taylor, and then so in June 1969, he was dismissed, and then very shortly after, he was found drowned in his pool in his home in East Sussex, London, at the age of 27. Um, so he did not make a very great opinion or a very great impression on me, and we'll go through that a little bit more. Um, but he did make his mark, he had a legacy. He actually, um, you know, there were songs that referenced him. Pete Townsend and Jim Morrison wrote poems about him.

Daniel 8:21

Oh, yeah.

Angela 8:22

Um, okay, so that's well, I'll get back to that in a second. But like I said, he was indicted he was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1989. But this was something that I thought was interesting, and I really don't know if there's maybe it's just the times, and maybe it's just because again, like I said, they all died within a few years of each other. So I'm sure they were all on similar scenes, and it was like they knew each other, but there was just like references to each other, all of them, and again, this is not a far stretch because who doesn't reference Jimi Hendrix? He's freaking genius, who doesn't reference you know, Jim Morrison is an absolute icon, who doesn't reference Amy Winehouse, she's in a class of her own, but they it's like you keep finding all these things of them talking about each other and like you know, writing poems about each other, and then they all kind of ended up in this same little club together. But yeah, but actually before he uh joined the Rolling Stones, um, his kind of issues and problems were already beginning. Like as a teen, he was, you know, I guess this is kind of typical for for a lot of teens, but he was like fired for stealing money from his job to buy cigarettes, and like um before he became famous, he was just a busker and like drifting around, which is fine. I have no problem with this. But what he was doing in this drifting is he was getting people pregnant, like he had a bunch of kids, like a bunch of kids, yeah. Um, and so there was a lot of, and again, this there's probably a lot of scorned single mothers, rightly so, in his path. But like one of them said he just uses people, but even people who were in the industry, like Rolling Stone bass player Bill Wyman, he said he pushed every friendship to the limit and way beyond. Also, like Mick Jagger told Rolling Stone in 1995 when he was asked about his death, he said um, he was asked if he felt like bad about his death, and he said, No, I don't really. I do feel that I behaved in a very childish way, but we were very young, and in some ways we picked on him. But unfortunately, he made himself a target for it. He was very, very jealous, very difficult, very manipulative. And if you do that in this kind of a group of people, you get back as good as you give, to be honest. So Mick Jagger didn't necessarily have some great things to speak of. Now, the thing that really lost me is that he also um broke his hand on a woman's face. Oh, okay.

Daniel 10:46

There goes my sympathy for him.

Angela 10:47

Right. Yeah, like I was a little bit like, okay, a troubled soul, kind of a crappy person, happens to the best of us. Yeah. And then he broke his hand on a woman's face and he was fucking dead to me. So, and then he was also dead to everyone, unfortunately. But I don't know, that was kind of a cold line. Sorry. But you break your hand on a woman's face and you get nothing from me. The coroner's report states that he died of drowning. I love this because this is such a Britishism, but it was later clarified as death by misadventure, which I believe is just a Britishism.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

You know what? I have officially found my desired cause of death.

Angela 11:26

Yeah, he's not the only person on this list who died by death by misadventure. Like when I was first looking through it, I was like, I also had a little laugh, and then I was like, oh, that's just a thing. And I was like, okay, we don't have that here in America. It's just we die Is it almost like dying of exposure, sort of like dying of like I think misadventure is like you die in like a like an adventurous way that goes wrong? Um, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Again, my point stands. That's what I'm I'm pre-filling out my death certificate.

Angela 11:56

Yeah. Yes. No, but I guess there's a and I also found this as a common thread that there is a theory out there that he was murdered by a construction worker who was the last to see him alive, and apparently there was potentially some like payment dispute. And there's been a lot of back and forth. Even to this day, two of his children still like there was a documentary that came out a few years ago, and they were kind of like the whole documentary. I think a lot of the narrative thread was around this, like maybe he was murdered or maybe not, and his his kids were like, maybe he was. But I think, like, I personally don't think, I mean, I guess I don't know, but although it does kind of sound like a guy you might murder, like I'm thinking about it, and I'm looking at it.

Daniel 12:37

People may have felt a certain way.

Angela 12:39

Yeah, I don't know. But like Jimi Hendrix, like I said, Jimi Hendrix dedicated a song to him.

Daniel 12:44

But and how does a 27-year-old how does a 27-year-old wind up drowned in his pool? I mean, I guess he was a drug and drug addict, yeah.

Angela 12:52

Yeah. I don't think that's a far stretch. Um, but like Jim Morrison wrote Ode to LA while thinking of Brian Jones deceased. Like that was the name of the poem that he wrote with Brian Jones in mind, which again is even more eerie because Jim Morrison died on the exact same day as Brian Jones, but two years later.

Daniel 13:12

Oh, oh wow.

Angela 13:14

Yeah. Like there's a lot of these like weird little things that are like, you know, they're like little threads and they're maybe little coincidences, but they're also still just there, and it's like, oh, okay. So, anyways, less about Brian Jones, more about our next member of The Big Six, and that is maybe one of the biggest of the Big Six, is Jimi Hendrix. So he died next in 1970, and he was um he was found dead from drugs and asphyxiation on his own vomit. But when Jimi Hendrix was a boy, honestly, I was like so touched by his story. But I you know when you have those moments when you're reading about someone as a child where like your heart just breaks for them and then you just feel sad. Um, so he grew up in a very, you know, poor family. And he had he grew up in Seattle, but he would carry a broom around with him to emulate a guitar to the point where like it was like his security blanket, like he was he wouldn't let go of this broom. And his school social worker literally said that she um put in a letter requesting funding for underprivileged children to get him a guitar because she genuinely felt that him not having one would result in psychological damage. Wow.

Daniel 14:31

And like what a wonderful person to just like notice that and like I'm gonna do something and help this kid out.

Angela 14:38

I'm going to assume that she didn't get funding and like then kind of like went to his father and was like, hey, like I really think that he needs this. But it says, I mean his Wikipedia says that his father refused to buy him a guitar, and I'm refusing to allow that narrative that his dad was just like mean, and I'm just gonna say they didn't have enough money. Okay. Um, because there's a lot more mention of his father throughout his story, and I don't think it's a good one.

Daniel 15:04

It was probably a complicated decision of him, yeah.

Angela 15:08

Yeah, I mean guitars are I know, and who's to say maybe he had other siblings, and it's like if I do this for him, I can't do everything, you know. There's I I'm choosing to believe that it's a bit more dimensional than that because I don't want to feel the heartbreak. I'm just imagining adorable cute little Jimi Hendrix with his broom.

Daniel 15:26

Yeah.

Angela 15:27

Um but in 1957, so just a few years later, when he's still a child, he was helping his father with like a little side job, and he found a ukulele in the garbage.

Daniel 15:38

And that's halfway to a guitar.

Angela 15:40

Yeah, like they were removing junk from a woman's home, and so she told him he could keep it, and I guess it only had one string, but that's how he learned to play music. And so he like Like one string ukulele.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Angela 15:54

Just the absolute like epitome of like a prodigy. Like he taught himself with what little he had. He, you know, would play Elvis songs and stuff and try and figure it out, figure out like the finger movements and the chords. And then in 1958, when he was 15, he got his first acoustic guitar for five dollars, which is the equivalent of about like $56. And he starts to just emulate the, you know, all the music he's hearing, and he's playing it by ear, and he's really taking what he learned from his one-string banjo and just absolutely blowing up, you know, his his capability and his learning. And then after high school, he gets into a little bit of trouble, and he had the choice to either go to jail or go into the military, and he chose the military.

Daniel 16:41

What would you choose? I think I'd choose military.

Angela 16:45

The military. But I would have been very, very, very much like like his military experience actually cracked me up a lot and also made me sad. Um, but he he chose the military, and he absolutely hated boot camp, which I would have hated boot camp.

Daniel 17:01

Um and he It seems like everyone would hate boot camp.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Yeah. Hot take, boot camp sounds not very fun. Yeah. Being screamed at all the time.

Angela 17:11

I don't think it's meant to be a fun itinerary either. Like, I don't like when we learned about them, like the whole point where they're like, we take your identity away, like your identity kit. I was like, this sounds fucking diabolical and psychotic. Like, all right.

Daniel 17:26

Like, where's the Kool-Aid?

Angela 17:28

They're flat out just like, we're trying to turn you into a killer drone, okay? Who just does whatever we say whenever. And yeah, I just don't, I don't have the I don't have the countenance. But it did kind of break my heart a little bit because he he left his guitar back home with his girlfriend, and then eventually when he got there, he like wrote home to his dad begging him to send it. And then his dad did send his guitar, and I guess like because he sucked at being a soldier, which sure I understand that, but I guess it made other people not like him very much.

Daniel 17:58

Oh.

Angela 17:59

Um, and they would like take his guitar and hide it, and he would beg for them to give it back, and like they would kind of tease and haze him and stuff. Yeah, fucking assholes.

Daniel 18:08

Why is everyone being mean to these musicians?

Angela 18:11

I know. Um, maybe they're just maybe they're having a party wherever they went when they died at 27. It's like a much better place.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yeah, where no bullies are there.

Angela 18:22

Right, where no one's gonna take their guitar and hide it from them and make them beg to get it back. Uh yeah, luckily he um it was in the military that he was kind of like playing gigs. He was playing at the military canteen or whatever, like army clubs. I don't know what the words are, because I I did not go to army. Um, but whatever, the army clubs, and then um, and so he kind of starts getting attention because of course he is incredibly good at doing at playing the guitar. So he um sucked at being in the army and he was discharged ultimately. They were like, You suck, and we don't like you either. And he was like, fine, by me. So he was discharged.

Daniel 19:01

It was a mutual the way you keep talking about it reminds me of Did you ever watch Arrested Development?

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yes. When Buster's like, I'm going to army. I'm making sure you're doing that on purpose. Thank you.

Angela 19:14

I knew what I was doing.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Okay. You can't get anything past me.

Angela 19:19

Yeah. Um, so he starts like he take he takes kind of like some of the momentum he got from playing in army clubs, and after he's discharged, he continues kind of moving and shaking a little bit, joining bands. He starts getting like recording deals, and he actually meets a woman named Linda Keith. And Linda Keith is the girlfriend of Keith Richards. So she sees him out and she's impressed, and she starts referring him around to the stones. And like other bands are, you know, taking interest in him. And he eventually gets a manager, and his manager sends him to London. And I like I honestly, I guess I didn't know very much about Jimi Hendrix's beginnings, but it's interesting how much he was like a London, Germany, like European star before he became a huge star in the United States. So he in London eventually forms the band, The Jimi Hendrix Experience. And this is like, you know, really kind of the band that he became known for. Um, and it was in London that he met Eric Clapton, and Eric Clapton said of Jimi Hendrix, he played just about every single style you could think of, and not in a flashy way. I mean, he did a few of his tricks like playing with his teeth and behind his back, but it wasn't in an upstaging sense at all, and that was it. He walked off, and my life was never the same again.

Daniel 20:38

That's an amazing quote. You know, he played with his teeth and behind his back, but it wasn't an upstaging guy.

Angela 20:44

Yeah. No big deal. Honestly, it was tame. Um then a few months later, he plays at, and I'm like going to London in a few months, and I almost want to see if this place will exist because he played at the Bag of Nails nightclub. And I just feel like that's gotta be a locale. That has got to be a location. Bag of nails. The bag of nails nightclub in London.

Daniel 21:06

Um at a bag of nails last night. Bag of nails last year.

Angela 21:11

I just had the bag of nails. Like, can you imagine like meeting the love of your life and having to be like, oh, we met at the bag of nails the rest of your life? Um, but it was there, so I guess this was a hot spot, so maybe it does exist still. It was there that John Lennon saw him, Paul McCartney, Pete Townsend, Brian Jones, um, Mick Jagger, Kevin Irres, like they all watched him play and were, of course, just blown away by him. I think, I mean, I've said it enough times, I'll say it again. I think it's very clear that Jimi Hendrix is just one of those people who like he probably lived like 15 lifetimes before this, where he was a guitar player, and this was the one where he was like at his peak because he doesn't seem like somebody who came to this earth not knowing what he was doing with a guitar. Yeah.

Daniel 21:54

Like all these people by 27.

Angela 21:58

Yeah. This is me joking. But it also is just like a crazo theory that sometimes I think about where I'm just like, who are these people that just like show up in this one wild and precious life and have these capabilities? Like, they're like, do you have multiple lives before this where you're practicing and practicing, and this just is the one, and this is how we're experiencing them? Like, I don't understand how some people just have it, you know.

Daniel 22:24

But that's or are there aliens among us?

Angela 22:27

Aliens, time travelers. That's another way people try to describe it. Yeah. Or there's just the few chosen ones, I guess.

Daniel 22:34

Yep.

Angela 22:35

So actually, to quote Kevin Ayers, um, I mean, people are just absolutely like in disbelief at this talent. And he said, All the stars were there. I heard serious comments, you know, shit, Jesus, damn. Another words worse than that.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

What a time to be alive. Oh shit.

Daniel 22:53

Those were some real curse words.

Angela 22:55

Yeah. I guess Bear had faded out by that. Yeah.

Daniel 22:58

Yeah.

Angela 23:00

So he released his debut album, Are You Experienced? And that album to this day is considered one of the greatest albums of all time. And he obviously is just off to the races. I mean, it has Purple Haze, The Wing Cries Mary, Hey Joe. It's like, I think for me, even like not really growing up with his music or whatever. Um, like I was listening through a little bit of it, and um, it's like songs you don't even realize how freaking iconic they were. And even just in his, not like there's his first album, of course, but um, like all along the watchtower, I know that's a Dylan cover, but there's um there's so many songs of his that are so iconic and just like I mean, you know like those soundtrack of life kind of songs.

Daniel 23:43

I mean, he made the national anthem his own. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, like uh what do you say to someone who was able to do that? And like, I don't know.

Angela 23:53

I I just feel like that's I know Paul McCartney um watched him play, he like did a cover of Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club band, and Paul McCartney said that it was one of the greatest honors of his career to watch Jimi Hendrix play one of his songs.

Daniel 24:09

I mean, from Paul McCartney, that's insane.

Angela 24:12

Yeah. So, and then of course, like I mentioned before, um, it like I mean, literally, if you think about it, he got out of the service in 1962, and by 1969, he is the highest paid rock artist and he is headlining Woodstock.

Daniel 24:27

What a rise. Meteoric.

Angela 24:29

I'm pretty sure there are seven year stretches of my life that I couldn't tell you five things I did. And like, okay, cool. Um, no, I'm just kidding, that's not true.

Daniel 24:40

But at the same time, like But definitely no seven-year stretches where it went from uh being a grunt in the army to headlining the biggest music festival.

Angela 24:49

Shitty grunt in the army.

Daniel 24:50

Yeah, yeah. That is quite a seven-year uh trajectory.

Angela 24:55

Yeah. So after he does Woodstock, he he died a few months after he did Woodstock, but he did do something extremely iconic in that period of time between Woodstock and when he passed away. Have you heard of Electric Lady Studios?

Daniel 25:10

Uh no. I mean, vaguely couldn't know.

Angela 25:13

You know what? I'm surprised you haven't because um Electric Studios is um he was starting to record a new album, but like his recording costs were hundreds of thousands of dollars. And so basically they were like, this is untenable. So he commissioned um a studio to be built, and it was Electric Lady, and it is like iconic, and many, many people have recorded there, but most famous of them all is your girl, Taylor Swift.

Daniel 25:42

Oh gosh, like in Swiftyland.

Angela 25:45

I know that like when she goes to when people see her going to Electric Lady studios, they're always just like because like I guess a lot of her iconic hits have been recorded at Electric Lady.

Daniel 25:56

Wow. And so it's still a successful uh iconic place.

Angela 26:01

Oh yeah.

Daniel 26:01

So he's still so Jimi Hendrix still has his. I mean, obviously he has his mark on music history from his own influence, but in a more structural literal sense.

Angela 26:09

Nobody cares about anything except Electric Lady. That's his legacy.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Yeah, no one Jimmy Who?

Angela 26:17

Jimmy Who? Yeah, I had to really research. Like, that's why I was listening to the album because I was like, who the fuck is this? I'm just kidding. Um, so the last person to see him alive was named Monica Daneman, and she was his girlfriend at the time of his death. And she said that they had, you know, he had been out, he had come home early in, you know, the wee hours of the morning, and they had talked, and they had stayed up late, and then they had gone to sleep. And she woke up again around 11 a.m. and found him breathing but unconscious and unresponsive. So she calls an ambulance and they take him to St. Mary Abbott's Hospital in Kensington, London, and um he was pronounced dead at 12 45 p.m. on September 18th. So they, you know, did an autopsy and he aspirated his own vomit and died of asphyxia while intoxicated with barbiturates. So um, I guess Daneman later she did say that he had taken a bunch of sleeping tablets um like 18 times the recommended dosage, but I think it was more of a I don't think it's considered to have been self-inflicted or anything.

Daniel 27:24

I think it's not intentional. Yeah. Was he maybe recreationally using those and like had been upping more and more or not even recreationally, but just to get the the needed effect of sleep. Was he just maybe abusing for the intended effect of sleeping pills?

Angela 27:40

Oh, I mean like he came home at like you know the early hours of the morning and they were up late up till 7 a.m. talking, so yeah, maybe. Um and then 16 days after this, Janice Joplin died.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Wow.

Angela 27:52

So when I think of Janice Joplin, I always think of like me and Bobby McGee. Like, again, I don't know her music super, super well. Um, but I know, I mean, you'd hear her like scratchy voice, yeah kind of style anywhere.

Daniel 28:07

Her like devil make hair attitude, yeah, was iconic. I one thing I do now think of all the time with Jan Janice Joplin is I always think of 30 Rock, with they had that storyline where Jenna kept playing a more and more fictionalized version of Janice Joplin in a movie, and by the end they couldn't use any of the name or life rights, so her the character's name was Jackie Jorpjump.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

Oh my god, yeah, I remember that.

Daniel 28:34

Um she was always playing Janice Joplin, and then by the end she had to be Jackie Jorpjump. So I always think of Jackie Jorpjump for Janice Joplin.

Angela 28:46

But when you think about it, Janice Joplin, that is her real name, like her given name, and like what a badass name.

Daniel 28:52

Yeah.

Angela 28:53

So I always associate her with like the San Francisco hate Ashbury 1960s scene. But I did not know this. She was just a girl from Texas going to school, wanting to be a social worker.

Daniel 29:05

And she that's she wanted to be a social worker, and then by 27, she was one of the biggest musicians in the world. That's it, just happens.

Angela 29:13

Just happens. Um no, but her campus newspaper, The Daily Texan, they ran a profile on her um in 1962, headlined She Dares to Be Different. And it said, according, and this is from Wikipedia. I feel like whenever I'm kind of like quoting out this is from Wikipedia, um, it says, She goes barefooted when she feels like it, wears Levi's to class because they're more comfortable, and carries her auto harp with her everywhere she goes, so that in case she gets the urge to break into song, it will be handy. Her name is Janice Joplin. I feel like whoever wrote that kind of like had an inkling that she was maybe gonna be a big deal. I feel like you don't end your statement with like her name is Janice Joplin unless you're sitting there like a like a little crony, like, and someday this article's gonna be on her Wikipedia page.

Daniel 29:59

Like they wrote that and they were like, that felt iconic to write. I'm not sure why.

Angela 30:06

Yeah. Um, maybe she just had the X Factor. I mean, yeah, you never know. So she actually goes to San Francisco at two sort of different points in her life, and the first time she goes is right after her first college stint, and it does not go well. Um, like she got rough years for many of them really. Yeah, she got really, really into drugs. Like bad, bad, bad. She was on amphetamines, and she was apparently like just emaciated, like 88 pounds. Um, she was wasting away like doing intravenous drugs and amphetamines. And I mean, literally, not not only is she quoted as being like, I didn't like any of my friends, and like they like she didn't like any of her friends then, um, but they held a bus fare party to collect money to send her home to Beaumont, Texas. Like, it sounds like it was a bad time for all involved.

Daniel 31:00

Wait, her friends straight up held she was like, I don't like any of you guys, and they were like, We're holding a party to get bus fare for you to get the F out of here.

Angela 31:07

Yeah, pretty much.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

I made it kind of sound like they got each other though, a little bit. Like they met each other's energy.

Angela 31:14

Yeah, yes, but it doesn't sound like great energy to be colliding. Um, so she goes back home to Texas and it cracked me up because it she like got a beehive and went back to school.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Um and the beehive hair do you mean?

Angela 31:29

Oh no, it gets better. She got a beehive, she went back to school to you know continue pursuing becoming a social worker. She would go to Austin to play gigs, and she got engaged to a guy who worked for IBM. Like she just morphs into a different person.

Daniel 31:43

Yeah, just tra just gonna get my trad suburban 1.2 kids and cars. Yeah, yeah.

Angela 31:51

Um, but then a band came along called Big Brother and the Holding Company, and she started playing with them, and they lured her back to San Francisco. And honestly, it kind of again, these it broke my heart because she was clean and she was trying to stay clean to the point of like trying to make sure that her surroundings were going to be clean and rooming with somebody from the band who didn't do drugs, but then they had a huge party, and like there was an incident where they had a party, and she came out into the room where everybody was, and people were shooting up, and she just lost it. Like, I can't be around that, like, get that away from me. And so, like, her she was trying to be clean and sober, like, she spent so much time in her life trying to get clean, like that's and so much time falling off the wagon, but she was always in in and out of trying to get clean, which makes me very sad for her.

Daniel 32:44

That's that's what's I mean, so often people like to brush aside when someone overdoses or has a drug problem. But like hearing that she for years straight up like tried her hardest like to do everything she could to keep herself away from it, and it's so unfortunate that you know the industry that she could find success. I mean, I don't know what is it just creatives being into drugs? What is it with all I mean, it a theme is appearing. I mean, it doesn't seem like they're all necessarily the same type of drug addict, but so far it seems like drugs have been the the reason for these members of the club to be dying so early.

Angela 33:26

Literally all of them, even like Mac Miller died of an accidental fentanyl overdose. Um I think there's a couple things about it. I think that to be a creative, um, like you know, when I'm writing, I can't write out in public. Like I would I wouldn't go to like a coffee shop and be writing because a lot of times I'm like kind of crying sometimes. Like it's not even like I'm like sad or whatever. It's just like it's an emotional thing, it's an emotional like output. And I think that a lot of like people who are more sensitive and who feel things deeply, the best art comes out of, although I'm not very sensitive, but um, but I feel like it is a common denominator that there is more of like a personality type of kind of like deeply feeling for people who become musicians and who become artists, and then I think I think it becomes a vicious cycle because when you deeply feel and someone tells you like a lot of those feelings that you're deeply feeling are painful. I mean, like Sylvia Pleth, she said, I feel everything deeply, even when I feel nothing, I feel it deeply. And um and so I think you meander towards drugs because drugs are the one thing in this world that 100% is like quick fix, let me take care of that problem for you. And so then, of course, also when you're a musician, I think it's even further amplified because everyone around you is having a good time, they're drinking, they're doing drugs. So it is sort of one of those things where it's like, oh, is this a pattern? And it's like, not really. It's just a kind of like domino effect of like one thing, I mean, it's just like a confluence.

Daniel 35:06

So it makes sense that it seems to be a common pattern among creative people.

Angela 35:13

Mm-hmm. And also I think it seems like there are these similar threads into like Janice Joplin and Amy Winehouse. Um, like Janice, she like would meet a nice boy and she would be dating them and like, you know, be trying to it seems like she kept gravitating back into that wanting to be the wife.

Daniel 35:35

She's maybe like a very kind of had two conflicting life desires, like one for a standard life of being maybe a wife and mother, maybe a career, a traditional career, etc. But then the other like a quieter life.

Angela 35:48

The other of the pull of of drugs and and fame and music and the Yeah, and like Amy Winehouse went through something or like she kind of had a similar path where when she was trying to get clean towards the end of her life, she was, you know, she had gotten out of um this massively toxic marriage, and she was kind of like dating the nice guy, and people thought they were gonna get married, and then she ended up passing away. Um, so for Janice in her situation, she falls off the wagon and that ends that relationship with the nice boy. And I think she went through some I mean, well, first of all, she um so she splits from Big Brother and the Holding Company, and she forms another band called the Cosmic Blues Band. And this is when she really I mean, it was she had a few instances throughout her short life where she really fell off the wagon, and it sounds like this was one of them where she was she kind of got like arrested a few times, and I think they said at one point she was shooting up $200 worth of heroin per day, which with inflation is like twelve hundred dollars. It's a wild amount of heroin.

Daniel 37:01

I I don't know anything about quantities of heroin, but that just that yeah, yeah, I don't either be that can't be a good um amount. Yeah, I think zero is probably the best amount, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Wild take from wild take.

Angela 37:17

Yeah. Um, and then so a little bit later on, she um that's when she plays Woodstock, and I think she was kind of starting to clean up a little bit by then and and more like drinking. Like she was said to have always been walking around with a bottle of Southern Comfort, like that was her her thing. She was always drinking Soco. And um, and so she got to Woodstock with Joan Bez, and they get there and they find out, and like Joan Bez is like pregnant at the time, and they I guess like everything was so far behind schedule that they were like, Hey, um, you are gonna be waiting for like 10 hours for your set. She played Woodstock between 2 and 3 a.m. And I guess like it didn't really go well because she'd been spending enough like she'd been smoking and drinking and doing drugs, and it was two to three a.m. And I mean Woodstock was just like even Jimi Hendrix as the headliner pushed his time later um because he like got a lot of like social or like got a lot of like anxiety about it because there were like 300,000 people at Woodstock, and so he went for the last slot um the next day. He just it was like a massive amount of people, and it was people drunk and having sex and being nuts. So he he waited till the last day because it was a little bit more chilled out.

Daniel 38:43

Okay.

Angela 38:44

Um so even though it was like 2 to 3 a.m., I don't think that means the place was like dead. It wasn't like, oh, the midnight graveyard shift. Yeah, it was a rager.

Daniel 38:54

It just was probably the like sloppy hours of the late.

Angela 38:58

And I think she was a little sloppy at Woodstock. And then after that, she's spiraling out of control again. And I think that she could sometimes be like, I mean, we we kind of see this a little bit in her first San Francisco stint. I don't think she was very enjoyable to be around when she was I think she would get to the point where she was like manic.

Daniel 39:17

I don't think many people I think most people are probably not great to be around when they're on drugs.

Angela 39:22

Yeah.

unknown 39:22

Yeah.

Angela 39:23

So she kind of hits rock bottom and she goes to Brazil, and when she's in Brazil, she's because like she's trying to get clean. I don't think she was one of those people who just was like, This is who I am, leave me be. I think she genuinely was like, I understand this is ruining me. This is a problem. And so, like I said, she like that's heartbreaking, went through a lot of cycles of trying to get clean. So it's after she sort of flames out and crashes out after Woodstock, and she goes to Brazil and she meets a nice boy, and she kind of falls back into that previous pattern of like, you know, the guy who worked for IBM. Like, it's almost like she tries to take one lifestyle and just completely like tamp it down and go start a whole different lifestyle with the nice boy. And I think they were like when to get engaged, and then the same thing sort of happens again where she um gets an opportunity to form a band, and she it was called the full tilt boogie band, and she was really excited about it. She was like, This is this is the one that's mine, like this is my band, but she's starting to fall off the wagon, and the nice boy does not stick around through that, so they break up. So she's playing with her full tilt boogie band, and um, I mean, this is a short period of time because remember how I said Jimi Hendrix dies pretty shortly after Woodstock, and she died 18 days later. It's like within a few months after um Woodstock, like she died on October 4th, 1970. She was found dead on the floor of her room at the landmark motor hotel by her road manager, and um, she died of a heroin overdose. And apparently at that time there was some like really potent heroin going around Los Angeles, and so she like died of an overdose from kind of her body after all that heroin. It was just like a a little bit of a different breed of heroin, and I think you know, there was like she was bisexual and she also had like a long-term kind of on and off girlfriend who was one of the last people to speak to her, and I guess that and her girlfriend also was addicted to heroin, and um, there was like this whole thing that sounded kind of nuts where she had written a biography called Going Down with Janice, you know, talking about their relationship, and I think that they sort of enabled each other through a lot of drugs and toxicity. But she in her book had named the make of the car of the person and like kind of gave some details about the person who had dealt her that fatal um the what do you call it in heroin? I don't know, the fatal dose. Yeah, and um this is alleged, but it it said that like the girl that that woman was then dating, she was out at the bar and a car full of people rolled up on the bar. Like it was like her haunt that she would go to and stabbed her like three times over it. And they think it was because it was retribution for naming enough details about the heroin dealer who had dealt um the final like you know the heroine that had killed Janice Joblin.

Daniel 42:20

Yikes. So I mean, we're not naming their names. Zip zip.

Angela 42:26

Yeah.

Daniel 42:27

Um Stebbins. I have no idea.

Angela 42:31

I have no information. Um, also, if that person is still alive, then like they would have taken over the world by now. Like, yeah. Um, so our next member of the big six is Jim Morrison, poet and frontman of the doors, and he was found dead in his bathtub from an overdose. Though apparently there are also questions that have been raised around the circumstances of his death.

Daniel 43:00

That seems like that's kind of would just be a common case. It's young people dying, often wealthy, often in maybe emotional circumstances. So I just feel like there's probably gonna be a lot of times where people are gonna have alternate theories. Like it can't be as simple as a drug overdose, it was really murder.

Angela 43:19

Mm-hmm. I think it sensationalizes it. But I think there's also a piece of it where when you connect with someone and their music, a lot of people kind of like imprint on some of their songs and they mean so much to them that I think it's hard for people to just accept that they have sort of especially when you consider like a drug overdose, it's kind of like a uh it's a shitty way to die for everyone around you. It's like you didn't, you know, if only you could have gotten clean, if only you didn't take that hit. Like, um, I mean, kind of even thinking back to like Mac Miller's like if only that you know whatever he took hadn't been laced with fentanyl, like we would still. Have these people. I think that's like that painful if only, and people don't want to accept it, and it's much easier to say, maybe they were murdered. Like, and then it kind of makes it make sense a little bit more.

Daniel 44:11

Yeah.

Angela 44:12

But I also honestly am not that familiar with the doors, but I we've all seen those iconic images of him, like the shirtless looking the camera dead in the eye, like and at the time he was like the quintessential rebel, and he was the co-founder of the doors, and I think he really like actually I did find out a fun fact. Fun little crossover fact. I love when we find little crossover information from one curse to the next. Um, much like our other little manic pixie dream boy Charles the Bold, he was like to have wanted to emulate Alexander the Great in a biography written about him called No One Gets Out of Here Alive.

Daniel 44:52

It's like Oh, so many guys are obsessed with Alexander the Great.

Angela 44:56

But yeah, also when he was in high school, I thought this was a funny little fact. He wrote a paper about like 16th century demonology, and it was so off the walls that his English teacher was like, This is 100% made up. Like she fully could not accept it as reality. She's like, This is amazing that you are talking about doesn't exist. And I'm like, I don't know. Um, didn't we have another little prancy of another little man prancing around with a book about demonology?

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Yeah, remember the day Monica?

Angela 45:26

Yeah, the day Monica, yeah. They're out there. This girl needed to broaden her horizons. There's there's a book about everything, babe.

Daniel 45:35

Who was the Day Monica guy again?

Angela 45:38

It was in McDonald's.

Daniel 45:39

The witch guy, the king who hated witches.

Angela 45:41

Yeah, the king who hated witches. Well, getting back on track. For someone who I knew like nothing about, I loved everything I learned about Jim Morrison. So um, in 1969 in Miami, he was like intoxicated and just wild and out. And he, like, after a concert, he was trying to spark a riot and he was screaming, You want to see my cock, and other obscenities. And three days later, six warrants for his arrest were issued in Florida and he was arrested. But actually, this has like a wild ending to the story because he was arrested, and like these the wild and out that he was doing could have gotten him like a significant jail sentence, but he put a ton of money into it to fight it because, of course, he had the money since he was in the doors. But he realized in that experience, he said, you know, he would see all the other men waiting for their chance in the courtroom, and they had no money for their defense, and they would just get thrown into jail for lesser things than he. And he really kind of had this like, I understand my privilege, I understand that the the legal system is fucked up, or like the justice system is fucked up, like it really kind of sparked in him this kind of crusade for the justice system.

Daniel 46:57

What a story. At first, it goes from like riot-worthy schlong, and I was like, okay, this guy's not a good draw, and then he's like becoming a social justice. The justice system is fucked up.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Awakening. That's amazing. Like, if only all of those ills of society could have that storyline.

Angela 47:15

Honestly, in this day and age, it's all of the showing people they're cocks that are destroying the world. So the justice system seems to be checked out on that one.

Daniel 47:24

So he seems he seems he seems like a like a pretty good guy, like a like someone maybe a little like a little misguided at times, but he has his like his heart in the right place and he sees the world for what it is in a good way.

Angela 47:37

Yeah, but then unfortunately, of course, um, when he was 27 years old, he died in a bathtub in Paris where he was on a leave of absence from the doors. There was no autopsy done because it's France, baby. Um, but they think that he may have died of like a heart attack, or of course, there's always speculation like it was a drug overdose.

Daniel 47:56

I mean a 27-year-old dropping dead. It is strange they went to an autopsy, it seems I mean 27-year-olds don't just drop dead.

Angela 48:05

I feel like in in France they're like, I always just imagine them with like a little cigarette in hand, like a 27-year-old could drop dead and just taking a drag, and that's the end of the conversation. Like So the 27 Club curse, if we'll call it that, if if we will, takes a breather. Doesn't rear its ugly head until the year 1994 with our next member of the Big Six, a man named Kurt Cobain.

Daniel 48:33

Oh and this is when you were starting and you were saying how Amy Winehouse is like the one you think of. To me, Kurt Cobain is like the biggest star.

Angela 48:41

Really?

Daniel 48:42

I don't I mean, I guess I'm my older brother always listened to Nirvana growing up. I mean, I was a little young to be listening to Grunge, but I definitely absorbed it and got a love for it from my older brother and his friends all listening to it. So to me, Nirvana like Nirvana is like, yeah, that's my childhood. That is, you know.

Angela 49:00

I also I do think that Come As You Are is in the echelons of perfect songs. So Kurt Cobain was born in 1967 in Aberdeen, Washington, and he sounds like he was such like a like it's kind of sad because it sounds like he in the you know, he was a very dynamic kid. He really liked cartoons, he liked to draw, he liked to sing and play music and dance. But what happened to him, I think that really kind of like was one of those cataclysmic trajectory shifting moments was when he was nine years old, his parents got divorced, and I think it broke his heart. And he was quoted as saying that he felt ashamed of his parents as a child, and he desperately wanted to have a typical family and he wanted security. So he said he resented his parents for quite a few years because of that. And I think what he was going through was something that a lot of kids in that age were going through because when you consider like the 80s prior to that, people did not really get divorced. Like it wasn't common. It was really women being able to go out into the workforce and the invention of birth control, and that really became more prevalent in the 80s that women were able to take the pill, they did not have to be, you know, they weren't getting as bogged down by childbearing, you know, they were able to go to school. So a lot of women kind of had these awakenings and started getting divorced. And so I think that urged a lot of couples. I mean, there's probably a lot of social factors that go into it, but I I kind of think now when people's parents get divorced, it's a little bit more like, oh, you know, my friend's parents that happened too, or like, oh, you know, like whatever. It's very, very common. But I think for him it was just this like shatter of a thing. And it's not to say that it doesn't shatter people and break kids' hearts when it happens now, but I think it was just so like he kind of was on this path that he a didn't expect, but B, I don't think a lot of people around him were experiencing the same thing, or if they were, you know, it didn't feel like it to him. So he really felt displaced and he felt like his father got married and had a few more kids, and he I think just ended up feeling very much like thrown away, like kind of like just like the gum on his father's shoe. Then like he's got a new life, and like and his mom found herself in an abusive relationship. So I think his stability really fell apart, and that was difficult for him. And so he becomes a very angsty teen. He was like acting out at one point. His dad got custody of him. At another point, he went to therapy, which honestly is must have been a real call for help because I don't think therapy was very much of a thing that people did in the 80s as much either. But they took him to a therapist, and his therapist said he needs a single family home. And apparently his family was like, Well, then his parents need to get back together. Let's try and get them back together. And it's like, I think the toothpaste is out of the tooth. Yeah, um, not a good idea, not helpful. But his father took custody of him, he was too much to handle, he was too difficult, so he sent him to go live with some other family members instead. And I guess this these family members were like the I'm on fire for Jesus type, and so he became a born-again Christian um for a little bit, which is sort of funny because it's literally like he did that, and then he later was like, What the fuck? Like, what was I on with that one? Like, I think he went on to like denounce religion and whatnot. Also, gotta again, it's like Kurt and Jimmy gotta rep out here for my fellow non-athletes. Apparently, like his dad, when he was a kid, tried to get him into little league. Um, and he would literally get up to the base and just like strike out on purpose so he didn't have to play. Like, absolutely premium. I remember I would like sit in the outfield and draw my name in with my like shoe in the dirt. Um, I one time got hit in the neck with a baseball and was just like, what? Like, so I appreciate a fellow non-athlete out there. Um, but it's like it's interesting because when you read his story or like kind of like this period of time in his life, it's so stereotypical, it's so typical, but then you have to remember, like, no, actually, like he is the person who the stereotype is built around. Like, Kurt Cobain is the original angsty teen. Kurt Cobain is the smells like teen spirit, like punk rock, hardcore, getting into trouble.

Daniel 53:23

Like, yeah, he was not a chill guy.

Angela 53:26

No, he honestly uh it's he seems to me a little bit like he reminds me of my brother a little bit, who also is like a musician and kind of is very like he seemed very much like he had a standard and he was very angsty, and if things weren't how he liked it, or like the glass was half empty or completely empty, and my brother can be like that sometimes. So Kurt Cobain, I never you know have noticed this before, but I felt like I saw some similarities. Um, but Kurt, so again, he's kind of having a rough, a rough go of it. He's in high school, he gets to the end of high school, and it's like a few weeks before graduation, and he realizes he doesn't have enough credits to graduate. So he's just like, fuck it. And um, and I guess he was living with his mom again at that time, and she was just like, uh no, like you're gonna get a job. You're not just gonna like lounge around in my house. And he was like, or not, and he begins a period of like homelessness and couch surfing, and like hanging out under the bridge over a Wishco River, which is like I just feel like the perfect. I can imagine he was just in his most angsty grunge element at this time, like earning his stripes, like in you know, Aberdeen, Washington, just like in the bleak gray of it, hanging out under a bridge. Like, I can only imagine it was just quintessentially this your average, like 90s grunge moment in time. Um, so this is another thing from Wikipedia, and I like wasn't gonna include it, but it felt like such a time warp as I read it, and it felt to me like it packaged up a toxic punk relationship into a perfect little time capsule of the 90s. So this is an excerpt from his Wikipedia page. Cobain began dating Toby Vail, an influential punk zenster of the riot girl band Bikini Kill. After meeting Vale, Cobain vomited, overwhelmed with anxiety caused by his infatuation with her. This event inspired the lyric Love You So Much It Makes Me Sick in the song Aneurism. While Cobain regarded Vail as his female counterpart, his relationship with her waned. He desired the maternal comfort of a traditional relationship, which Vail regarded as sexist within a counterculture punk rock community. Vail's lovers were described by her friend Alice Wheeler as fashion accessories. Cobain wrote many of his songs about Vail. Like, I can just picture this relationship. I don't know, it just felt like it like jumped off the page of just like, oh yeah, that's like a toxic punk rock 90s time capsule. I would say, because I honestly think that his later relationship also really fits that bill of his marriage with Courtney Love.

Daniel 56:01

Honestly, all his relationships just seem exhausting and like disastrous. I feel bad for everyone involved in those relationships, but yikes.

Angela 56:09

But like such 90s core, like grunge core. In high school, Kurt meets Chris Novoselik, and eventually he talks him into forming a band with him called Nirvana, and they add Chad Channing, Chad, Chad Channing, oh my god. This man had to live his entire life with the name Chad Channing. I can't handle it. Like I just had an absolute meltdown trying to say this man's name. Chad Channing played on the drums and toured around them, but Kurt was like meh, and he didn't like his style, so he was out. And a young man named Dave Grohl was in, and the rest was history. So they record the album Nevermind. The lead single is smells like Teen Spirit, and it blows up. And I don't think anybody would have been ready for that, but least of all Kurt Cobain. So they get catapulted into mainstream success, even being called the flagship band of Generation X. And as you can imagine, Kurt is not enjoying this. And he is suddenly like thrust into this role of being the frontman of this huge band, and they mean so many things to people, and they're kind of leading this like movement without meaning to, you know, like this angsty grunge 90s movement. And so, you know, things are happening that it just like grind his fucking gears, which would grind anyone's gears, like where um the media just kind of like takes what you have and spins it into oblivion, and everybody wants a piece of you and they're speaking for you and they think you they know you. And he, you know, he's a sensitive you know, artist and musician, and he just it just frustrated him. And he was frustrated with fans who like swore they loved the band but didn't align to their political and social beliefs because they um I don't know if I necessarily knew this about Nirvana, but they were like staunchly pro-choice, staunchly anti-racism, anti-homophobia. They were huge allies and supporters of gay rights. They spoke out for gay rights and against sexism and sexual assault. They were real ones. They really were. You I cannot, I know, I have to give them tons of credit because also that was a time where it was not necessarily cool to be like that. And they are this massive mainstream in the forefront band, and they're out there supporting gay rights and pushing against some of you know societal norms to do so.

Daniel 58:28

I mean, they have like an anti-rape song, like that's to think of someone doing that in the 90s is is like just you know, like they were very ahead of the curve. Things that today would be being called woke.

Angela 58:40

Yeah. And honestly, I love reading quotes of him and the way he talks. I feel like Janice Joplin was like this as well, where when you read their quotes, you can kind of just like hear them in the room talking. Um so this is something he said about how he like the lyrics that he was writing in his songs were being picked apart and people were trying to interpret them, and he focused more on the melody. That's where he thought the artistry was, not in the lyrics. So he said, Why in the hell do journalists insist on coming up with a second-rate Freudian evaluation of my lyrics when 90% of the time they've transcribed them incorrectly?

Daniel 59:14

And I just didn't mumble though, in their defense. He was a little hard to understand at times.

Angela 59:20

Yeah, but he also described his lyrics as a big pile of contradictions. They're split down the middle between very sincere opinions that I have and sarcastic opinions and feelings that I have, and sarcastic, and they're hopeful, and a humorous rebut and they're hopeful, humorous rebuttals towards cliche, bohemian ideals that have been exhausted for years. Like again, he sounds so like his own person that you can just hear him through his quotes, but he also sounds like he was exhausting a little bit too.

Daniel 59:49

Yeah, a little bit, but great.

Angela 59:51

Um so then, of course, Kurt meets Courtney Love and they got together, and it's a bit of like a drug field sit and Nancy kind of vibes, but they were they were in love and they got married in Hawaii and they got pregnant and had their daughter Frances Bean. And I have to say, I know all kinds of things have been said about this relationship and about Courtney Love, but I am making the um editorial decision to not talk shit about Courtney Love because Courtney Love is one of the first people who came out against Harvey Weinstein, and she is, I think, a lot smarter and more articulate than anybody gives her credit for because people want to just shit all over her about her relationship with Kurt Cobain and blame her for him committing suicide. And I and I'll justice for Courtney Love. I will I'm sure she's made many mistakes and there have been all kinds of things that somebody could come around and be like, fuck you, blah, blah, blah, you know, whatever. But I'm gonna I'm gonna wipe her slate for coming out against Tarvey Weinstein and suffering ramifications from that.

Daniel 1:00:51

Valid.

Angela 1:00:52

Um, but of course, as the story goes, he has issues with substance abuse, and he had from a very young age, because of course he had a very tumultuous childhood, and I'm sure he had a lot of big feelings. And through those big feelings, as a 12-year-old, he started drinking, and at 13, he started smoking weed. And of course, you know, as he grows and gets into the scene, the same old, same old heroin joins the mix. And by 1993, his heroin usage is absolutely out of control. He has had multiple instances of overdosing, and Courtney helping resuscitate him or taking him to the hospital. He like overdosed before a performance in 1993, and Courtney just like injected him with Narcan, and he got up and went out and did the show.

Daniel 1:01:36

Like, Jesus.

Angela 1:01:38

It was rough living, and he was very much suffering from substance abuse. There's this incident in Rome, and I think this is really where like it broke the camel's back. So Courtney finds him unconscious in their hotel room. He had drank champagne and took a bunch of rahypnol, and she got him to the hospital, but people thought that he had died. Like, literally, Dave Grohl received a phone call. He says in his memoir, that Kurt had died, and then like later receives a phone call that he was stable, which I'm sure was nothing short of horrible for Dave Grohl to go through. Wow, yeah.

Daniel 1:02:11

No offense, but whoever sent the phone. Yeah, maybe she's gonna just like maybe check your sources.

Angela 1:02:17

Um and apparently this was this incident was ruled as a suicide attempt, and I think it was kind of the beginning of this like downward slide because a little bit after that, Courtney phoned the Seattle police and informed them that he had locked himself in a room with a gun and that Kurt was suicidal. Um, and so the police arrive and they kind of like you know, they're she's trying to get him help. And um, he he told them that he wasn't suicidal, but he had just locked himself in a room. But I think like the writing was on the wall, and so Courtney stages an intervention. And of course, Kurt is not pleased, he did not go quietly into that dark night, but eventually he does agree and he goes into detox and then rehab. But before he goes into rehab, he had purchased a firearm for what he had called was self-protection, which I feel like anytime someone in that state buys a firearm, it's a massive, massive red flag.

Daniel 1:03:18

Yeah.

Angela 1:03:19

And so while he was in rehab, he left the facility, like he broke out of the facility, flies to Seattle, doesn't tell anyone where he's going. Um, but apparently, and this is something that I always think is so weird or random, is like when famous people are like, Oh, I was sitting next to them on the or I ran into them at the airport, and I realize maybe it's more of like an LAX thing, like maybe it's more of a hub of like they're all you know similarly going out of places. But I'm like, is this a thing? I fly on planes almost every single week, and I am never just like, oh, I was sitting next to someone famous. But apparently on this like flight to Seattle, um, he sat near Duff McKagan of Guns N' Roses, and apparently Duff McKagan and Kurt Cobain didn't get along very well, and Kurt didn't really like him. But McKagan says that he seemed happy and um that he was like talking to him a lot, but he also kind of like got a vibe. Like he said like something wasn't like he was not doing well, and he kind of got a vibe off of Kurt that like something was wrong. But on April 8th, Kurt's body was discovered in his home by an electrician who had come to install a security system. And he did leave a suicide note, and I think it's a little bit shitty. Well, I guess in his like his service, I think Courtney was like reading excerpts out from his suicide note, so it's not like it was like a private thing per se, but it's like on his Wikipedia page, and I honestly like I don't think it should be there because it like I don't know, I just think of his daughter.

Daniel 1:04:49

I feel conflicted about it too. It's like there's there's newsworthiness, there's public interest, there's everything, but yeah, he's his family now knows that anyone who wants can read his you know what he wrote in his most desperate moment, probably. And that's yeah, it's not fair to him, it's not fair to anyone really.

Angela 1:05:07

Right. And like he had written it to his like childhood imaginary friend. Um and like it's just sad. Like his body had been in the house for days because like nobody knew he was there, they didn't know he was there. Um, so yes, he died. Uh his body was found on April 8th, but he they said he died on April 5th, 1994, at the age of 27. So again, similar to Brian Jones, people tried to speculate that maybe it was murder, but again, I feel like it was more people's just unwillingness to accept that someone so influential and so loved by them could have done something like taken their own life. And again, more crossover. Cobain was a huge admirer of Jimi Hendrix, which is not a far stone to throw, but he is quoted as saying, I mean, we had Jimi Hendrix, heck, what more do we want? And he said, I have great respect for him. So um another kind of nod to a fellow member of the unfortunate group. And which he found himself in. And so that brings us to number six, and that is Amy Winehouse. And um I mean, like I said, I still remember when she came onto the scene. She had that, she had such a unique look. She had her beehive hair, heavy eyeliner, the white, like wife beaters over bright, bright red bras or black bras, and like the horseshoe tattoo on her arm. And like she came out with rehab was the first song that um that I remember like hit the airwaves. And it was just like so catchy. It was just so clear that she was so incredibly talented, and she was so different.

Daniel 1:06:40

And her voice was just insane. Her voice was unlike any other. Yeah.

Angela 1:06:45

So Amy Winehouse was from Enfield, London, and she grew up in a Jewish household, and her father would play Frank Sinatra around the house. And I think I don't, you know, I think it's very obvious from her style and from her sound, and also from the fact that her first album is named Frank. She, you know, was a huge Frank. He was very um influential for Amy. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel 1:07:06

Her style for sure.

Angela 1:07:07

You can just tell that that was Yeah, and I remember like um oh, also like when she was nine, her parents split up kind of like Kurt, so sort of the same thing. And I remember watching her documentary that came out in 2015 called Amy, and she just seemed so like sweet and so shy and kind of like insecure. Um, but she had that like pure artistry about her, and she was so talented. And I think you know, she was always writing lyrics and journals and stuff, and kind of feeling it seems like again, a real common denominator for for people who are immensely artistically talented is you feel too much, but sometimes to their own detriment, the you know, tortured poet, tortured artist soul kind of thing. So Back to Black comes out after, so she had Frank come out, and I think she was like pretty popular. In fact, before she even got a recording deal, and it had kind of been circulating that there was this girl coming out on the scene, she got snapped up real fast. And I think there was even a little bit of like secrecy of like, oh, we're s we signed this artist, or like somebody had heard um uh like EP of hers and was like, Who who is that? Whose voice is that? And they were like lock and key because I think it's I mean, she was just a generational talent from from out the gate and everybody knew it. So actually, I guess what happens is for Frank, she said she only liked 80% of the album because the label kind of got their paws on it and they made a lot of editing choices and there were things about it that she felt like weren't quite her. But I think that that taught her something and that gave her kind of built up her backbone a little bit because um Mark Ronson said that one thing that he really liked about her is that she would she would be like, No, I don't like that, and like she would be very, very clear and blunt about it when she didn't like something. And I think she probably kind of learned from that first experience, and that combination of Mark Ronson and Amy Winehouse made one of the greatest albums of all time, Back to Black. I mean, it's literally just a masterclass of an album, like so many iconic, incredible songs. Like, I think one of my favorite lyrics is he kept his dick wet with the same old safe bet. Like, what an iconic line. Um also in the same song she says, We only said goodbye with words, I died a hundred times, you go back to her, and I go back to black. Like, just like I don't know. I just think it's such like I think it's funny how you can have that like dichotomous, but that was like I think that was some of her charm, is that she would say those things that you're like, like what? Oh my god. And I think she would talk about um like I think she says something like a tiny penny rolling up the walls inside, and it took me like a long time to realize that that was a drug reference. Tiny penny rolling up the walls, and she says, Life is like a pipe, and I'm a tiny penny rolling up the walls inside. And a penny rolling up the walls inside is the lit pipe with a penny of meth in it. So yeah, like I think she like she put things into her lyrics that you'd I mean, it literally took me years to realize that is a drug reference.

Daniel 1:10:24

Because I was you're not hip to the lingo, a sweet and tiny little mid-west girl. Because you're not rolling pennies up your meth pipe, Angela. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:32

My parents didn't let me watch PG 13 movies until I was 13 years old. And it shows Wait, is that true?

Daniel 1:10:40

You were really restricted to PG 13 until you were 13 and yikes.

Angela 1:10:45

Yeah, like when I was in middle school, all of my and I'm like young from my grade too, so like that sucked. All throughout middle school, when I would go to sleepovers at my friend's house, they would be like, um, Ange, this movie is rated PG, and it would be like the craft, and I'd be like, Oh, and you abided by the rules yourself?

Daniel 1:11:05

You lose it.

Angela 1:11:06

Yeah, but then like when I would give in and I would watch rated R movies, I remember I would be just like drowning in guilt, and I would have to go wrap myself out to my parents to get the guilt clear. Oh god. I remember I saw the movie Fear at a friend's house and was just like, I'm sorry. Like I remember my sister being like, if you tell on yourself, you might not get in as much trouble as if you get caught.

Daniel 1:11:30

How would they catch you? Were they gonna scan your memories to see if you've witnessed an R-rated movie?

Angela 1:11:36

I don't know. Anyway, so I think before Amy Winehouse even really becomes as mainstream famous as she became, she already was struggling with some substance abuse issues. Like she had some performances and things that she does right after Back to Black comes out, but then like very, very shortly after that, she kind of starts to crumble and she's performing and it's like not going well because she's intoxicated and um kind of jumbling over and like it's not sounding great. Like she did a performance in Birmingham, and the a critic said of it, it was one of the saddest nights of my life. I saw a supremely talented artist reduced to tears, stumbling around the stage and unforgivably swearing at the audience. So ultimately the tour for Back to Black was canceled. But that year at the Grammys, she won like the Grand Slam. She won Record of the Year, Song of the Year, Best Female Pop Vocal Performance for the single rehab, best pop vocal album, and best new artist. So she walked away with five Grammys. Um and I think I remember um I think it was those Grammys that she was kind of like shell-shocked as she's I don't think she was at the actual um the actual awards. I think she was like in London, so she was just on like a camera feed. And I remember she seemed just very like shocked and she like she was I remember she thanked her husband Blake and she was like to my husband who's incarcerated, and I feel like again, a lot of people were a little bit like, oh. Which brings us to Blake Civil Fielder. Um I think we all know the name Blake Civil Fielder because they just have one of those truly explosive, toxic, addiction-driven relationships, and they were on and off again, and they were married, and they were divorced, and he was arrested, and he was incarcerated, and she was swept up into it, and then she even like punched a woman in the face over him. Um, like she literally once said that their whole marriage was based on doing drugs, and I think then with it, those drugs came a lot of drama, and I mean ultimately they got divorced, and she cited adultery as the reason.

Daniel 1:13:50

I mean, yeah, drugs cannot be a stable marriage found.

Angela 1:13:54

Yeah. And I remember like thinking he was just like a plague upon her. Like, I don't think I'm out of bounds at all to just be like, this man is a piece of shit. And I think he really, really was the catalyst of a lot of her like downfall. I kind of remember that sort of like, oh, another story about Amy Winehouse like being drunk and disorderly, and there was a lot of, you know, I'm sure she was like parodied quite a bit for it as well, too, which I'm sure didn't help the situation at all. But she kind of goes through a similar thing as Janice Doplin, where she starts to get clean and she is really trying, and she kind of gets out of town and she goes on vacation. And I still remember when these images came out of her like riding horseback on a like island, like she went somewhere kind of tropical and she was working on her sobriety. And I think, you know, she's always been very close with her dad, and I think there was a lot of like hope and a lot of like maybe we're turning the corner. Blake civil fielder is out of her life. Um, she was, you know, in a much healthier relationship, and I think she was still dependent on alcohol, but she even like a few days before her doc before she died, she went to the doctor and she was in good spirits, and I think you know, she was struggling with bulimia and other like health issues. So there were, I mean, there was a lot going on, but I I think she was from a substance abuse perspective, she was really, you know, working on her sobriety. And like even on the day that she died, you know, people talked to her, she, you know, was happy, she was listening to music, apparently she was joking around and watching TV. And then on July 23rd, 2011, her bodyguard found her in her residence in bed. And when he first came in, he thought she was just sleeping in because I guess she liked to sleep in a lot. And then he came back later and she was still exactly how he left her. So um they discovered then that she had passed in her sleep. And the coroner released evidence that she had 0.4 blood alcohol content, and she also was ruled as having death by misadventure.

Daniel 1:15:57

Um, and I think 0.4 is a lot.

Angela 1:16:00

That's yeah, point four is a lot, and also, like, you know, her family also, her brother stated that the bulimia had had a hand in like really weakening her body and making her more susceptible to the alcohol poisoning that ultimately killed her. So that is the big six. There is one other little tiny piece of the story called the white lighter myth, but this kind of ended up being an urban legend. But apparently, people said that all of these, or most of the six members of the 27 Club, died in possession of a white disposable cigarette lighter. Which I don't know how anybody would have figured that out. Like, some massive pattern recognition that, like, yeah, apparently they all had a white lighter.

Daniel 1:16:43

But also, probably pretty standard, right? I mean, there are all people who probably smoke cigarettes and or other things would need lighters. They probably didn't make many colors of lighters back then.

Angela 1:16:54

Right, but here's the thing that Snopes discredited the theory in 2017. And they said that they discredit it because Bic did not enter into production until 1973, which was after the big run of like most of these people passing away. What I think is failed to be mentioned is that who's to say it was a Bic lighter? It's not like they were only using matches then. So the whole white lighter myth, maybe it's an urban legend, maybe it's just someone's massively detailed ability to find patterns, and maybe it's real. I don't feel like Snopes, I don't think that just saying that Bick didn't make disposable lighters, like that doesn't mean anything.

Daniel 1:17:38

I don't buy it, but I don't think that disproves it either. That that's the laziest disproving I've ever heard. It's like okay.

Angela 1:17:45

Yeah, Snopes just like they needed to get a they needed to get some content out there. Anyway, the only other piece of evidence to discuss when considering the 27 Club is that in 2014 a public health researcher named Diana Kenny said that popular musicians were most likely to die at the age of 56. 2.2% compared to 1.3 at 27. So I'm gonna say do I think something fucky was going on? Yes, and it's called heroin.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:18

Yeah.

Angela 1:18:20

I don't necessarily think there's a curse at play here. I think what is the curse is that uh you know, drugs and alcohol and something so potent has taken so much unbelievable talent. And I think that like your late 20s, and like, you know, these it's not quite as much of a thing now for everyone to just like always be young, and then as soon as you're not young, you're set out to past your good riddance. But 27 is kind of like a peak of that period of time in in people's lives of like, you know, coming up, they've got a couple years under their belt, and they're really you know, they've done some things and they're famous, and they're in the big huge mix of it, and the drugs are there and it's all kind of coming to its head. I think it is just a massive confluence.

Daniel 1:19:01

Yeah. Yeah, I I agree. I think it's it's just, you know, there's a lot of artists, there's gonna be, you know, there's many famous people, a lot of them doing drugs, making different decisions than people in different industries, and then you know, living very different lifestyles, and you're just gonna see a couple notable examples of people who unfortunately, you know, have bad outcomes from that lifestyle and and from things like drugs. Um, you know, I mean even something like depression. You know, it's it's not a curse, it's just it's just a life that happens.

Angela 1:19:36

So I think this one falls less in the maybe cursed category and more in the maybe not.

Daniel 1:19:42

Well, I do have one thing where I need to call this not cursed for my own personal uh sanity because we know somebody who has their own familial type of curse like this. Really? Um, a friend of ours, both her grandmother and her mother died at the age of 38 of different health issues. Right. And so she has had this idea always in kind of the back of her mind that like there's this pattern of 30. You know, her grandmother dying at 38, her mom, and uh she is turning 38 this month of this recording. And it's something that she has mentioned to me, and maybe she's mentioned it to you, I don't know. And she did once go to a tarot reading with a friend of hers, and she went in and she did not say anything about this, about her her family's history or anything about this this kind of curse that she feels might be on her bloodline. And the tarot reader did say something to her that she is the last in a line of seven women who will be breaking a cycle, and that her granddaughter will be like then the beginning of the next new cycle, and she has two boys. So, and then the tarot reader did not know any of this, so there's a little bit of weirdness, but I'm saying I need the 27 Club. I mean, I don't believe it for a second because I don't think there's anything like that. I need for my friend, for our friend's safety. I need this to not be a thing.

Angela 1:21:04

Okay, I know. I'm glad that I gave her a big hug when I just saw her the other weekend because um so you're saying this tarot card person was like, no, it it and it's done, it's not gonna happen.

Daniel 1:21:16

The tarot reader said something that that made it seem like that that that the cycle is ending. Yeah, but it's yeah, it it's not something she takes super seriously, but it's enough that it's weird and it I I you know. I I want i I'm putting out the energy that there's no such thing as this age curse.

Angela 1:21:35

Let's say maybe not, just to put that energy out there.

Daniel 1:21:39

Exactly. So definitely I'm gonna say definitely not cursed.

Angela 1:21:44

And happy birthday to our friend, you know who you are.

Daniel 1:21:49

See you next week.

Angela 1:21:55

Cursedish is an ish media production. It explores stories of alleged curses, historical mysteries, and supernatural claims. While we do investigate the history and the evidence behind these stories, ultimately you should decide for yourself what to believe. If you have questions, comments, or your own accursed tales to share, send us a hex at uhoh at cursed dish.com. That's uh oh h all one word at cursedish all one word.com